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Post by wolf_shade on Jul 24, 2016 22:53:20 GMT
I was recently able to work on sharpening some swords and spear heads with TomK's belt sander method (https://sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/15462/sharpening-polishing-methods). He mentions staying away from the tip because it might damage the tip, which I took to mean might break it. On one sword that did happen, but the issue I've most commonly encountered is that using the belt sander the tip ends up rounded rather than pointy. What would be the best way to return the pointy-ness to the tip? For the swords it's less important, they are primarily slicing weapons and so stabbing isn't as big a deal. For the spears, though, I would prefer to have pointed tips.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jul 25, 2016 0:41:22 GMT
“Damaging the tip” might mean building up excessive heat, easy to do with so little metal, ruining the tempering. Ceramic rods will round the tip. I use an Arkansas stone or sandpaper/oil using a hard backing or the paper with a slightly compressible backing along with a hard backing. I like my swords pointy.
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Post by wolf_shade on Jul 25, 2016 16:35:01 GMT
pgandy, thanks for the response. The belt sander has been my most recent (and most common) method. Even a sword I did by hand, which I had forgotten with the original post (sandpaper and oil on an in-hand sanding block with the sword secured to a work bench) that started with a pointy tip (a Windlass Qama) ended with a rounded tip. As in TomK's videos, the motion of the sanding is perpendicular to the edge. I don't know if that's related or if it's just a matter of the geometry of metal removal.
You mentioned that a ceramic rod will round the tip, but the hard backed paper does not. Do you know what the difference is in the mechanics that causes that?
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Post by Voltan on Jul 25, 2016 19:14:45 GMT
The belt sander will round the point every time if you go past the edge of the belt. With the right setup, this can be fixed, and avoided in the future. I put a light on the top of the machine, pointing downward. This enables me to much better see my angles, as well as how close the point gets to the belt as I make each pass. Make sure you're wearing a pair of safety glasses and a dust mask rated for grinding, so you can keep your eyes right above the upper spark guard and look down the belt. As you run the blade along the belt, starting from the hilt (or socket in the case of a spearhead), stop when the point reaches the edge of the belt. Going past the edge of the belt is what is causing the rounding. It's also very important that your belts track straight and do not "walk" side to side. If they do, you'll need to adjust the tensioner assembly on your machine. See the "Setup" section in this thread to get your sander running true: sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/46064/harbor-freight-belt-sander-maintenanceHope this helps. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jul 25, 2016 19:16:56 GMT
When using a ceramic rod one draws the edge across the rod and that often includes the point, which dulls it. In practice I try to stop just short of the point. Eventually when the point needs dress up I use a stone or paper. When using either, and I prefer them to be stationary moving the blade, I do not bring the point as such in contact with either. But rather continue sharpening the edge moving the point at about 90° across the abrasive. You might say a sharp point is a by-product of the later two. If necessary I’ll make a video if the above is not clear. Remember the sharper the point the weaker.
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Post by Voltan on Jul 25, 2016 19:25:07 GMT
“Damaging the tip” might mean building up excessive heat, easy to do with so little metal, ruining the tempering. Ceramic rods will round the tip. I use an Arkansas stone or sandpaper/oil using a hard backing or the paper with a slightly compressible backing along with a hard backing. I like my swords pointy. True as well. As there is less material at the tip, it heats up much faster using the belt sander. ALWAYS keep a tray of cold water nearby for cooling. For the long blades, I use an ice chest half full of water. For smaller blades, a water pitcher. After every couple of passes, dunk the blade to cool it off, wipe dry, and continue.
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Post by wolf_shade on Jul 25, 2016 20:25:16 GMT
The belt sander will round the point every time if you go past the edge of the belt. With the right setup, this can be fixed, and avoided in the future. I put a light on the top of the machine, pointing downward. This enables me to much better see my angles, as well as how close the point gets to the belt as I make each pass. Make sure you're wearing a safety glasses and a dust mask rated for grinding, so you can keep your eyes right above the upper spark guard and look down the belt. As you run the blade along the belt, starting from the hilt (or socket in the case of a spearhead), stop when the point reaches the edge of the belt. Going past the edge of the belt is what is causing the rounding. It's also very important that your belts track straight and do not "walk" side to side. If they do, you'll need to adjust the tensioner assembly on your machine. See the "Setup" section in this thread to get your sander running true: sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/46064/harbor-freight-belt-sander-maintenanceHope this helps. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions. :) I think I understand. What I have been doing is drawing the sword/spear all the way across the belt. It sounds like you're saying to stop when (or just before) the tip reaches the edge of the belt rather than drawing the tip onto the belt. I'll work on that method the next time. I'm trying to put an edge on some blunt spear heads so I'll have plenty of practice. I have a light and eye protection. I'll have to pick up some masks. Although, looking again at your image, the clamp light idea is one I had not thought of. My light sits next to the sander and so the arm of the sander casts a shadow on the opposite side. I suppose a headlamp would be the other option (or do you specifically want the light to be coming from behind the belt rather than in front?). I came across your sander maintenance thread today while looking at other things. I'm going to check the settings you mention the next time I have the opportunity to work on the blades. I don't have a drill press so I'm not sure how well I can perform the bearing replacement. Thank you for the offer. If I encounter more questions as I work on what you've described I'll PM you.
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Post by wolf_shade on Jul 25, 2016 20:32:57 GMT
When using a ceramic rod one draws the edge across the rod and that often includes the point, which dulls it. In practice I try to stop just short of the point. Eventually when the point needs dress up I use a stone or paper. When using either, and I prefer them to be stationary moving the blade, I do not bring the point as such in contact with either. But rather continue sharpening the edge moving the point at about 90° across the abrasive. You might say a sharp point is a by-product of the later two. If necessary I’ll make a video if the above is not clear. Remember the sharper the point the weaker. It sounds like you're saying something similar to what Voltan said about the belt. The point doesn't come in contact with the stone or paper, but sits just off the edge of it (or is only drawn to the edge of it?). If the blade has a distinct adjustment of angle (such as a tanto point knife) just before the tip, do you modify the angle of motion to keep it at 90° to the edge in that section, or would you keep the blade as a whole at a consistent angle whatever the angle of the edge at the time?
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Post by wolf_shade on Jul 25, 2016 20:40:53 GMT
“Damaging the tip” might mean building up excessive heat, easy to do with so little metal, ruining the tempering. Ceramic rods will round the tip. I use an Arkansas stone or sandpaper/oil using a hard backing or the paper with a slightly compressible backing along with a hard backing. I like my swords pointy. True as well. As there is less material at the tip, it heats up much faster using the belt sander. ALWAYS keep a tray of cold water nearby for cooling. For the long blades, I use an ice chest half full of water. For smaller blades, a water pitcher. After every couple of passes, dunk the blade to cool it off, wipe dry, and continue. Thank you both. My sharpening so far has been on multiple blades, so I've rotated blades as I sharpen. With two double-edged spear heads (my current project), I'll take one spear head and do one pass on each face of one edge then flip and do one pass on each face of the other edge, then grab a different spear and do one pass on each face of one edge, flip and do one pass on each face of the other edge then switch back and repeat. The blades have never gotten to a temperature where the edge was uncomfortable to the touch, usually just barely warm. However, if that's still too warm I can definitely adjust my methods to include an interval of dousing.
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Post by Voltan on Jul 25, 2016 21:20:41 GMT
I think I understand. What I have been doing is drawing the sword/spear all the way across the belt. It sounds like you're saying to stop when (or just before) the tip reaches the edge of the belt rather than drawing the tip onto the belt. I'll work on that method the next time. I'm trying to put an edge on some blunt spear heads so I'll have plenty of practice. I have a light and eye protection. I'll have to pick up some masks. Although, looking again at your image, the clamp light idea is one I had not thought of. My light sits next to the sander and so the arm of the sander casts a shadow on the opposite side. I suppose a headlamp would be the other option (or do you specifically want the light to be coming from behind the belt rather than in front?). Exactly right. The belts were shaving off your points as you were drawing the blades across. Actually, the light coming from above the belt is ideal. A headlamp would work; or, you can also get safety glasses with LED lights attached to the sides---O'Reilly Auto Parts sells them. I got the clamp light at True Value Hardware.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jul 26, 2016 2:28:18 GMT
Voltan has good input. I made a video earlier and it is being saved to a file at this moment. I hope to upload it to YouTube tomorrow as it is getting late and I expect I’ll fall asleep before all is done.
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Post by pgandy on Jul 26, 2016 18:40:19 GMT
Here’s the video. Two things that maybe I should point out. One is that the temperature of the blade resulting from a sander may well not be uniform. The proximal end where there is more metal may feel comfortable or hot to the touch while the distal end where there is very little metal may burn. Use the water frequently. The second is if the point is damaged by breakage, improper sharpening, or whatever what you see in the video will not work. You will have to reprofile to obtain a point and then restore the edge. I hope this helps.
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Post by Voltan on Jul 26, 2016 19:05:58 GMT
...I'll have to pick up some masks. Please do! All that nasty steel dust that's in and around your machine when you finish each job? You do not want that stuff in your lungs. Good vid there, pgandy.
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Post by pgandy on Jul 26, 2016 19:20:26 GMT
Thanks Voltan. From you that means something.
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Post by wolf_shade on Aug 3, 2016 13:05:55 GMT
Here’s the video. Two things that maybe I should point out. One is that the temperature of the blade resulting from a sander may well not be uniform. The proximal end where there is more metal may feel comfortable or hot to the touch while the distal end where there is very little metal may burn. Use the water frequently. The second is if the point is damaged by breakage, improper sharpening, or whatever what you see in the video will not work. You will have to reprofile to obtain a point and then restore the edge. I hope this helps. Forgive my delay in response. Thank you for this. That was very helpful. For knives I see the value in moving the edge rather than the paper. For swords it was unwieldy for me. I also had not considered the variation in thickness along the length of the blade. My rough tests by touch were on the midway point, and so where there would be more metal. I had hoped to get to sharpening this past weekend, but that did not work out. I'm looking at this coming weekend instead.
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Post by pgandy on Aug 3, 2016 19:16:07 GMT
You are welcome. The point, no pun, is not to treat the point as a separate identity but to sharpen the edge continuing it to the sides of the point and not on the tip per se. As for moving the blade or the paper; for me I use both methods depending on which fits the immediate situation. If I can free the blade from the hilt or if the entire sword is balanced to the point that I am not fighting it I’ll probably move the blade. Otherwise I’ll probably move the paper. Thinking on it, I’ve always moved my katanas. Yesterday I noticed a couple of shinny spots on the edge of my 4¼ lb bastard sword. It was still more than paper cutting sharp but it was a slow evening. I started with a block and a stationary blade. Things weren’t going as I liked so I switched using the mouse pad seen in the video and stopped with 360 paper. It was getting late and the blade at that time was razor sharp. The paper was old and polished like 400, maybe better. I couldn’t see marks at that point, but will have another go later. I exercise daily with that sword to build strength, otherwise I don’t think I could have used that method.
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Post by wolf_shade on Aug 20, 2016 2:38:52 GMT
I will have to get a camera to show the results. Unfortunately I am still doing something wrong as I continue to round off the point, the round is smaller now. I think I was slowing down when I got close to the tip because there's a fairly consistent taper and then it gets real narrow about 1/4" from the tip and the tip rounds out. Looks like a baby bottle.
Next attempt, PGandy's paper method. I can use that for spears and knives where a tip is important, and the sander for swords (because trying to do the full length of a sword with paper sounds awkward, and I'm not as concerned about tips on swords because I've got all slicers... except the new gladii. They're short, paper for them too).
Thank you both again for your input.
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Post by pgandy on Aug 21, 2016 12:55:59 GMT
I will have to get a camera to show the results. Unfortunately I am still doing something wrong as I continue to round off the point, the round is smaller now. I think I was slowing down when I got close to the tip because there's a fairly consistent taper and then it gets real narrow about 1/4" from the tip and the tip rounds out. Looks like a baby bottle. Next attempt, PGandy's paper method. I can use that for spears and knives where a tip is important, and the sander for swords (because trying to do the full length of a sword with paper sounds awkward, and I'm not as concerned about tips on swords because I've got all slicers... except the new gladii. They're short, paper for them too). Thank you both again for your input. Sorry that your problem with the tip still exists, although improved. The only advice that I can offer at this point is to study what is happening to change angle while sharpening. My guess is that you are allowing the stone/paper to follow the line of least resistance as you near the tip. Here is a photo of my Windlass D-Guard Bowie after sharpening the unsharpened false edge. I thought long and hard about this project as there is no support to guide me that far out. I lucked out. Sorry for the photo quality. At 06:00 the sun was not out and being the lazy bloke that I am I did not remove the wax from the blade.
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Aug 25, 2016 1:33:24 GMT
Im surprised nobody mentions a file. Files are used to re/shape (not sharpen) the tip. Then abrasive papers, then stones (I use Arkansas too). As pgandy mentions the paper should be backed by a wood block, not cork. And the stones should be flat. Hard flat things is how you will arrive at acute geometries - as pgandy is directing.
I've said many times before and I'll continue to say that this slack belt mania on SBG is detrimental. Nothing wrong or slow about using with nice, cool, finely controllable hand tools. As an added bonus files, stones, and paper can all be run lengthways down the blade, WITH the finish given your sword by the maker. I've never once taken a slack belt near the edge of a blade, let alone the tip.
Good luck with the repair.
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Post by pgandy on Aug 25, 2016 1:51:14 GMT
Im surprised nobody mentions a file. Files are used to re/shape (not sharpen) the tip.
Actually I hinted at that but neglected to give details on how. "The second is if the point is damaged by breakage, improper sharpening, or whatever what you see in the video will not work. You will have to reprofile to obtain a point and then restore the edge." No problem, the question has arisen on other forums, the surname is Gandy.
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