Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Jul 4, 2016 20:19:27 GMT
Thank you edelweiss for this very interesting information. I take it you mean to say that at an early stage blades were actually cast in molds? Directly? Not made of cast steel ingots that were hammered out, probably also in molds of some kind? I have read the ,, Arms of Krupp '' some years ago. A very good informatic read. Pity I do not have it anymore. Krupp were the first to introduce the mantle in large gun barrels, if I remember correctly. I wish I could find a treatise on industrial scale sabre blade production though.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Jul 4, 2016 20:45:57 GMT
Edelweiss:
My images, the ones I make that is, are screen shots actually. I do this to remove all data that are not image specific. They are clean. Uploading a picture to lets say Imgur, with all data intact, so, straight from the camara, takes indeed seconds longer than the cleaned ones. The images I take from the net are often compressed already. The loading time is almost instand. At Imgur I always use the ,, original '' option and the ,, Forum '' option, because this site will adjust the format to the site layout rules. So, my screenshot gets compressed here again to the format you see on this page. As there is nothing in the screenshots other than specific image instructions, I do not really see the need to compress them even more, but in future I will play around with the other options on the provider side. Like ,, large thumbnail ''. Anyway something close to the format on this site. I think the video links are more the culprit here. That is a lot of data down the tubes. And I am sorry, as I think you mean well, but anything even slightly connected to Facebook is not getting on my computer. It is not for nothing I have quite a lot of anti tracker apps running and other stuff that renders Google, Facebook and other dubious sites of their ilk quite harmless.
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Post by Dave Kelly on Jul 4, 2016 21:56:10 GMT
The US Army sent extensive exchange mission to Europe in the 19th Century to examine state of the art tech. These documents have extensive discussions of arms making techniques. Read a quote that said the 1854 French Curassier Pallasche was pressed out using a series of cletes. This as example. Not sure where to find this beyond the National Archives or War College Library.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jul 4, 2016 23:12:55 GMT
Well, I'd better make it worthwhile for you then. Are you quite sure not all of the neighbours are surfing on your connection? If you have WI-FI and your stream is not secured with a good password, everybody with a little savvy can break in and watch some tv show, while you are waiting for a picture to load and are paying for their fun. Ah, the times in Mexico, were the village had just one small and portable black and white tv. In the evening the entire population would gather around the little screen and watch ,,Futball'' or some god awfull Spanish soap opera, with much enthousiasm and delight. Ah, I remember the bygone days when there was one of those white and black boxes and only one channel. They would draw adults and many kids, like flies, in the cool of the evening. Sometimes we were invited inside but mostly watched stacked several rows deep from the door. The picture was not good with much snow and some static. Today if I had so many uninvited guests I would be much bothered. But thinking back on it the proud owner of those sets took delight at being a good host and showing off their treasure offering beer to the adults and sometimes treats to us kids. With only one channel there never was a discussion on what to watch, but I never could stomach the soaps. As I write this we lost electricity so I will store it on the lap top and transfer it when the system is up. Once the electricity is back does not necessary mean the IP is up, that takes a little longer. And so goes life here.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Jul 5, 2016 4:59:00 GMT
Dave: Now we're getting somewhere. The M1854 pressed out. Like a cookie from cookie dough. Not very romantic. People will see the later 19th C. blade in a different light. A: And how many blades you wanted sir? B: 10 M1822 and 4 M1854 ? A: Ah, setting up a little home defence team are we sir? Just a moment sir. Clonk, clonk, clonk... A, adjusting his impeccable Italian silk cravat: Here you are sir. The checkout is over there. Yes , we take Master Card. Good day sir. Are the institutions you speak of open to the general internet public? I have never dealt with either one of them.
Pgandy: Lots of ,, Laissez faire ''. One needs that, or go berserk. We are a very, very spoiled lot over here.
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Post by Dave Kelly on Jul 5, 2016 7:29:57 GMT
Dave: Now we're getting somewhere. The M1854 pressed out. Like a cookie from cookie dough. Not very romantic. People will see the later 19th C. blade in a different light. A: And how many blades you wanted sir? B: 10 M1822 and 4 M1854 ? A: Ah, setting up a little home defence team are we sir? Just a moment sir. Clonk, clonk, clonk... A, adjusting his impeccable Italian silk cravat: Here you are sir. The checkout is over there. Yes , we take Master Card. Good day sir. Are the institutions you speak of open to the general internet public? I have never dealt with either one of them. Pgandy: Lots of ,, Laissez faire ''. One needs that, or go berserk. We are a very, very spoiled lot over here. War College is a big no. Archives you can do library title searches but only a fraction of the holdings are accesible. I'd have to find the official title of these observer expeditions and reports. Stay tuned.
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Post by Croccifixio on Jul 5, 2016 8:54:54 GMT
Well, there are a couple of British documentaries in Youtube (I think the Pathe series? I can recheck since I downloaded them) on sword-making in this time period. All of them were filmed in Wilkinson's factory I think. You saw drop forging, rolling, but in the end it came down to hand forging as well.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2016 10:06:27 GMT
No, no. Refined, ingots processed into blades. Blister steel melted in crucibles. Those furnaces heating rows of crucibles at one time vs one large one. The difference until Bessemer, the methodology, consistency and volume. Rolling mills came along with industrialization as well but bevels still hammered before further grinding. Wilkinson-Latham had posted both images and videos of the Wilkinson shops over the years.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2016 10:33:44 GMT
Edelweiss: And I am sorry, as I think you mean well, but anything even slightly connected to Facebook is not getting on my computer. It is not for nothing I have quite a lot of anti tracker apps running and other stuff that renders Google, Facebook and other dubious sites of their ilk quite harmless. Sorry about that, wrong link shared. This is the utility I have used on Windows machines for many years. www.onthegosoft.com/shrink_pic.htmIt has been useful when uploading to boards who's attachment limits are constrained. Turning it off, as easy as exiting the program. Does not affect/change the original image but uploads as an altered copy. Sniffed as clean and easily removed. Incidentally, it seems to work fine with later Windows systems (recently added to my Win 10 tower).
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Post by althesmith on Oct 25, 2016 5:12:03 GMT
Everything I've read regarding "cast steel" in blades points to the cast steel ingots being the blade material, as opposed to the shear and double-shear steel used in the 16th-18th centuries (and much of the 19th) as raw blade material. The cast steel was made into bars which were forged to shape as per normal, or sometimes rolled with appropriate machinery. I can think of no instance past the Bronze age of standard sword blades, not decorator pieces, being cast directly into shape. Cast or crucible steel (same thing) had a more even carbon distribution and did not have the occasional delamination issues that shear steel did, being made from piling and welding carburised bars.
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Post by victoriansword on Oct 25, 2016 13:45:29 GMT
I wonder about all the negatives associated with pipebacks? If they were so bad, how comes such asskickers used them for a good number of years? The famous story is of the Crimea war, but Russians wore coats like gambusons, with a lot stuff underneath, so is it really the sword's fault? Did other swords in the same situations perform so much better than pipebacks there? Maybe a good few British cavalrymen sucked as fencers too boot? Maybe too simple to get it after 1 or 2 cuts that their jackets make that a no winner, so thrust it in his mouth or rip through his skull with it? Improvise, adapt, overcome. I'd love to hear some illumination on the subject? But generally Germans are not known for substandard weapons and there has to be more to it, maybe in real combat and what it does to an enemy soldier, not how it looks. Don't need to hack off a limb to make it useless, don;t have to cut off a head or run a sword all the way through someone. Cut tendons, broken bones, open throats and 3" deep stab wounds do just fine if for some reason you are not shooting them. I doubt many pipe back blades saw service in the Crimean War.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Nov 24, 2016 18:39:07 GMT
Lots of "shot in head" in the Uhlan death registry during 1870/71, as opposed to the 1866 poll.
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Post by althesmith on Oct 4, 2018 0:15:45 GMT
All "cast steel" refers to in the 19th century is simply that the forging/rolling/etc. was done from crucible cast steel ingots, which were poured and rolled out into bars rather than made from "shear" steel which was carburised, cut and stacked, and rewelded and repeated to proved fairly homogenous steel bars. Crucible steel was resisted in England Until the French started using it whereupon the Birmingham masters had to play catch-up.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Feb 7, 2019 3:16:34 GMT
Uhlan is your KS52 sharp? In your measles post it looks almost like it has a service grind.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Feb 7, 2019 4:10:04 GMT
I can run my thumb all along the edge, though the top third is sharper than the rest of the blade. So, not very sharp, but nothing a few strokes with a block and sand paper over the top third cannot fix. I'd say it was probably service sharpened once and then dulled again, the dulling never done well enough. The rest of the blade begins with the usual 1mm+ and starts really to thin out the closer it gets to the top third. Somewhere before the end of the fuller, say 15 cm, would be the event horizon. Nothing sudden but gradual. Nice work really when you think about it. Like someone cared long ago.
Cheers.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Feb 7, 2019 7:41:44 GMT
Uhlan thanks, I was curious about it. I'm picking one up soon, a '60 and it seems to have the same sort of bevel look yours had. Love the work you did on them btw.
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Uhlan
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Posts: 3,121
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Post by Uhlan on Feb 8, 2019 5:13:56 GMT
I hope you will show yours here. With the numbers, so we can compare. Always fun. If you have to do cleaning of the inside of the basket, you should know that work on the inside is a b!tch. There is always something in the way. Looking back I should have just used some liquid rust remover and not stupid sand paper. On top of the basket preventing easy access, the inside of the things have this uneven surface. Kind of orange peel. That is okay. Should be there as it is skin of the casting process. Was polished off on the outside. Some extreemly stupid people, like yours truly, thought it was part of the rust. So no. Anyway, hope you get a good one and that you will like to handle it. I think they are really good sabres, just need some courting. They come around in the end.
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