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Post by nddave on Jul 12, 2016 23:32:34 GMT
I really cannot wrap my head around why a full wrap would be a bad investment. I guess if you are just buying to resell. the whole idea on the strips is to same money by getting you a cheaply made handle. I can understand if you want to same money and not have that changed. but to say that it makes the katana worse? im assuming that you worded that wrong. Seeing how panels is a modern production thing and full rayskin wraps have been used and applauded as a very popular handle wrap not exclusive to the Japanese and used worldwide, I don't see how panels could be considered superior either. Think about it, if panels worked and full wraps were simply for aesthetic or were in fact inferior, the Japanese would have only used panels too at the hight of the Katana's use. Dont see any panel tsuka from the shinto period do we? So yea I don't know what jammer is talking about either, makes no sense.
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Post by wyndonp on Jul 13, 2016 3:25:40 GMT
After much deliberation, reading reviews and just eventually pulling the trigger, I landed on the Tori Elite. It just came today. I won't bloat the thread with a review, but I will say the tsuka is just as terrible as I had feared and I will definitely be sending it somewhere for a rework, probably a newly carved handle and definitely a new wrap. I will probably opt for a full same wrap and more than likely either cotton or silk ito.
I already have nihonzashi recommended, as well as Cottontail. What is the consensus about Thomas Buck at tsukamaki.net?
Any others to consider?
Mods, if this needs to be moved to another topic, please don't hesitate.
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Post by wazikan on Jul 13, 2016 4:47:11 GMT
Congrats. I have no first hand experience with nihonzashi , but have never heard any bad things about them, Only positive. I've used randy black and cottontail for my tsukas .the cottontail was a rewrap with full same.
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Post by Kiyoshi on Jul 13, 2016 5:00:43 GMT
Hanwei has infamous terrible tsuka. My preference for a cutter is cotton ito. It is very comfortable. I use cotton on my cutter and iaito because of how nice it feels. That said, I haven't touched real silk in a looooong time.
Also worth noting, Josh has not been accepting customs for a while so you might not be able to go with him. Sal is still on the table. You could contact those who have bought his swords to see how the ito has held up if you doubt his work. You can check the member feedback forums as well. I personally don't know anyone who has had work done by Thomas but his works do look solid. Heck, guy even wrote the book on tsukamaki (literally) so I don't think he is someone who you have to doubt knows what he is doing but it would be nice to hear. Also pictures are nice since we all like sword porn.
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Post by wyndonp on Jul 13, 2016 5:34:20 GMT
Hanwei has infamous terrible tsuka. My preference for a cutter is cotton ito. It is very comfortable. I use cotton on my cutter and iaito because of how nice it feels. That said, I haven't touched real silk in a looooong time. Also worth noting, Josh has not been accepting customs for a while so you might not be able to go with him. Sal is still on the table. You could contact those who have bought his swords to see how the ito has held up if you doubt his work. You can check the member feedback forums as well. I personally don't know anyone who has had work done by Thomas but his works do look solid. Heck, guy even wrote the book on tsukamaki (literally) so I don't think he is someone who you have to doubt knows what he is doing but it would be nice to hear. Also pictures are nice since we all like sword porn. I was wondering about Cottontail, as Josh hasn't responded to an email I sent last week when I started setting the table for the Tori. I had figured he was just on vacation, but as you say, he may be declining new custom work for now. I'll look at Sal's feedback. Tsukamaki.net was on my radar for the exact reason you stated- I bought his book and am reading it, and it would be pretty cool to have such an esteemed guy work on one of my swords. I was leaning toward cotton for the ito. The Ronin Elite has a synthetic silk wrap and it feels rough. That said, the tuskamaki, the tightness and precision of the wrap, the shape of the handle and, frankly, everything else about the tsuka on my particular Elite is better- in my very limited and inexperienced opinion- than the Tori. As always, thanks for the help and tips. I'm having a lot of fun with my new, little, 3 (for now...) sword collection and I'm learning a ton.
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Post by Kiyoshi on Jul 13, 2016 5:43:49 GMT
Ronin has a pretty usual for the market tsuka which is a good thing. I have both Japanese and Chinese market tsuka and I like the Japanese because of the flow with the sword it has (makes swings feel more natural) adn they make a smaller, well shaped tsuka that doesn't feel bad even in my larger hands. Out of every sword I've ever owned or held, Hanwei probably has the absolute worst tsuka in terms of wrap and shape. It comes loose easily and feels like a potato. However their blades are really well made, probably some of the best tempered I've used. I don't like their Elite blade geometry as I prefer more traditionally shaped blades. However, if you like the feel of the blade, after you get a good tsuka on it, you'll not regret it and your blade will last you a LONG time as long as you don't abuse it (ie, trying to cut down a tree). It will last through years of tameshigiri even without sharpening so long as you keep your form well. My practical is still razor sharp and I've had it for at least 5 years. I've cut with it consistently and have let beginners with poor form use it since it is my beater and it is still in tip top shape. That is more than I can say about the few dead Musashi and Longquan katana I have laying around.
Josh has it posted on his website that he is not accepting new commissions until further notice and it has been that way for a while. I'm sure he has a good reason but it takes a lot of people off guard because he is normally THE go to guy for sword work.
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Post by zabazagobo on Jul 14, 2016 4:03:44 GMT
Out of every sword I've ever owned or held, Hanwei probably has the absolute worst tsuka in terms of wrap and shape. It comes loose easily and feels like a potato Josh has it posted on his website that he is not accepting new commissions until further notice and it has been that way for a while. I'm sure he has a good reason but it takes a lot of people off guard because he is normally THE go to guy for sword work. Potato...guess it's the Irish side of my heritage that makes me like the thick handle somewhat. When a $800 Hanwei has worse ito-maki than a sword less than half the price (Huawei in this case) you know there's a problem. I hope Josh opens up shop again soon, I've got a potato to send him sooner or later haha.
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Post by Kiyoshi on Jul 14, 2016 5:33:45 GMT
I don't mind larger tsuka (I have a longquan katana with a larger tsuka) but the shape... I might as well be holding a potato, lol.
I hope so too. I loved to see his posts of swords he had finished for other customers that I would just stare at and wish I wasn't constantly broke.
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Post by Cody in Tx on Jul 14, 2016 17:40:20 GMT
Hello All, It's been a while since I've been active on this board, but I would just like to say I purchased a hanwei musashi daito from Sal a while back that he made a tsuka and wrapped it. Anyways, that blade has since become my favorite cutter easily going thru double mats (a feat for me) to bottles and jugs and my stand, twice. The blade along with sals tsuka have been my primary cutter for I'd say 10-15 bottle sessions (getting wet) and 4 or 5 mat sessions totaling around 100 mats including 3 or 4 double rolls. Anyhow, the kashira will now slightly wiggle (I used to hold it when cutting until it started to move) but since I have held the tsuka up higher on the wrap itself the wrap and the knots have held everything else in place since then. I have been more than happy with the katana. When I purchased the blade from him I asked him how many wraps he had done before this one and he said this katana was his 5th wrap, mine being in silk. I would happily recommend his work. Unfortunately I don't yet have any work from Randy or Josh to compare it to. Cheers guys, Cody in Tx
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Post by Cody in Tx on Jul 14, 2016 17:52:34 GMT
One more thing, regarding the Hanwei Musashi 30th anniversary blade, I purchased two of them, one for me and one for my buddy I cut with. Both of them had exceptional shaped tsukas with excellent wraps so far. They have been thru two tatami mat sessions and are still tight. But both were waisted cores and the best shaped I have seen from Hanwei, not the typical axe handle. In my opinion, it's a great buy especially with the sageo that it comes with. I would recommend that to the op. cheers again, Cody in Tx
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Post by jammer on Jul 14, 2016 20:30:03 GMT
I think that the panels allow more nuanced shape initially, and evolution of the shape of tsuka over time without as many problems.
If you have mastered the art, and/or are heading off into the unknown without a retinue, then get a full wrap.
The swordsman's grip is the weakest point, normally.
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Post by The Lone Stranger on Jul 15, 2016 2:27:01 GMT
From what I've been reading, some have been saying negative things about Sal's work. I must refute that as the pic of the katana with the green wrap that has the copper tsuba is mine and I've used that sucker on two inch bamboo that had half inch thick walls. After 50 cuts, (yeah I know that ain't terribly much), the wrap didn't loosen nor were there any other problems with his work. I'm satisfied. If you don't like what you've seen in the past, okay, fine. My experience is different.
Next, is a panel wrap a modern invention? No. I have seen it on original tsuka from the 1600's. That's not exactly modern. Is a full wrap worth it to a practitioner? Yes as it does add resistance to shifting/wear over the years. Just my two cents. Don't like it or have experienced something different? Fine. Don't enter into a pissing contest with me because I won't entertain it. Thanks for listening gentlemen.
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Post by Kiyoshi on Jul 15, 2016 7:40:44 GMT
Cotton and silk ito can be cleaned pretty easily with a very soft toothbrush. This is what I use and my wraps are in pretty top notch shape. The plum color on one of my iaito shows grime really quick so I have to clean that one a bit more than others.
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Post by Richard Arias on Jul 15, 2016 7:51:18 GMT
From what I've been reading, some have been saying negative things about Sal's work. I must refute that as the pic of the katana with the green wrap that has the copper tsuba is mine and I've used that sucker on two inch bamboo that had half inch thick walls. After 50 cuts, (yeah I know that ain't terribly much), the wrap didn't loosen nor were there any other problems with his work. I'm satisfied. If you don't like what you've seen in the past, okay, fine. My experience is different. Next, is a panel wrap a modern invention? No. I have seen it on original tsuka from the 1600's. That's not exactly modern. Is a full wrap worth it to a practitioner? Yes as it does add resistance to shifting/wear over the years. Just my two cents. Don't like it or have experienced something different? Fine. Don't enter into a pissing contest with me because I won't entertain it. Thanks for listening gentlemen. Keep us posted. I have had wraps last years of hard use. Only rewrapped them because cotton and silk gunk up and get rough on your hands.The end knot on your wrap has some fray in the pic posted like the knot isn't 100% clean execution . Thats how it looks, give me a high res close up and I can see more. But it is being misunderstood about things and wraps. The triangle end knot seen on most production blades isn't proper and most tsuka shi will let you know that. The arch knot is a sign of skill and when you pull it off clean it says something. Sal is getting better, but lacks the many years of experience in crafts and sword use. You can watch a YouTube video on tsuka wraps and probably do it. But I have seen wraps from Top guys like Robin Ramirez ($300 a wrap) and it Takes a lot of work to get there. On Top of that he is an exceotional swordsman. Paul Loatman used to be On SFI same as Aaron Justice. The two took a lot of constructive criticism and got better. I have had the similar experience with sword sharpening by forum members. They can make a sword sharp ish, but can't do it in the clean, symmetrical and consistent way as professional shops. But people telling them that they are great are only cutting in the back yard and most have not seen custom grade shop work. This is not to put down backyard cutters because right now I wish I had a yard to cut in. But there was a time I saw a hanwei shinto (about 13 years ago) And I thought "man that's awesome". Now I just see a blade that needs a serious tune up. Its kinda like being cool with your beater Honda until you know what its like to Drive a Fully loaded Subaru that's turbocharged. Its just a different eye to things. I just pulled the trigger on a hanwei blade to be named later (waiting to review it). My buddy asked me "excited?" My response was "hope its good enough out of the box to buy me some time to save up to fix it". He was confused and gave me the "if its broken send it back, if its not why fix it?" He Is a car guy who has a custom 300 horsepower WRX and related to him that my sword is like his car. All I see is how good can be better. We both agreed its kinda a curse and we are ruined in a way :) I want to be Impressed by this new blade, but odds are against it.
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Post by Richard Arias on Jul 15, 2016 7:59:47 GMT
Cotton and silk ito can be cleaned pretty easily with a very soft toothbrush. This is what I use and my wraps are in pretty top notch shape. The plum color on one of my iaito shows grime really quick so I have to clean that one a bit more than others. I have a baby toothbrush I use for that but I am mostly taking about wear like shoe laces. There is a point where its just worn. My last wrap made it through 7 years of use and while still solid was abrasive on my hands. Its why I stick to Suede these days even worn it still reasonable.
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Post by The Lone Stranger on Jul 15, 2016 19:26:25 GMT
Mr. Arias,
Yes sir, I shall keep y'all posted. I see what you are saying with the end knot as I was comparing it to one of my antiques that has held up beautifully. Tsukamaki is definitely a difficult craft as it is very nuanced.
Indeed, I share your ideas with the differences between good custom and customized swords versus those right off the shelf. Sometimes those differences are subtle and others are very obvious to even a casual observer.
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Post by Kiyoshi on Jul 15, 2016 20:42:01 GMT
Ah, gotcha. I hadn't had that issue as of yet. It might be like real shoes with me where the shoes fail before the laces, lol. The sword I've had the longest and use regularly is coming up on 6 years of cutting (I have another that's older by near a decade but I don't use it often and the tsuka has been replaced since I got it). The ito is coming loose but that's because it isn't the best wrapped. I tend to have a very gentle but firm grip I suppose.
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Post by Richard Arias on Jul 16, 2016 1:38:18 GMT
Ah, gotcha. I hadn't had that issue as of yet. It might be like real shoes with me where the shoes fail before the laces, lol. The sword I've had the longest and use regularly is coming up on 6 years of cutting (I have another that's older by near a decade but I don't use it often and the tsuka has been replaced since I got it). The ito is coming loose but that's because it isn't the best wrapped. I tend to have a very gentle but firm grip I suppose. My first real sword I got about 12 years ago. It is a permanent attached tsuka thru hardened unokubi from one of the Fred Chen knock offs Imperial Forge. Wrap still solid but its held by a lot of glue from the forge. Just gave it to a student it is his first sword. He has a lot of zeal and physical ability, but can be a bit odd and miss the concept of things. He has the potential to go far, but his family barely makes dojo fees so I gave him my first blade. The orchid I had of Sals got sold to another class student for what I paid for it before all the fixing and upgrades again its what his dad could swing and I like both blades going to students. Tom kinder did the resharpening on the imperial, so its very functional. And though he is to modest I wish he did sharpening as he is really the only one outside of nihonzashi that does good sharpening work to a craftsmen standard. Attached pic is cutting with it. Funny story it was lost in '09 because my senile grandma put it in a closet and only remembered when I left for training in March. It was weird to cut with it again. As for shoes I paid $130 for a good pair of redwings. My first pair and they have a lifetime warranty. Repair or replace I wish hanwei would adopt that :) People wonder why I push Nihonzashi, but half price sharpening and repairs is a deal. You just spend more for a long term gain. But then again I like owning one good semi custom sword rather than a wall of stock blades. Its like buying cheap sneakers at Payless it depends on your point of view. Like a brave new world do you think ending is better than mending? Attachments:
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Post by Kiyoshi on Jul 16, 2016 2:48:24 GMT
We are getting a bit off of the OP's topic so I'm going to reply in PM since I kinda like the topic you are bringing up.
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Post by jammer on Jul 16, 2016 17:49:53 GMT
From what I've been reading, some have been saying negative things about Sal's work. I must refute that as the pic of the katana with the green wrap that has the copper tsuba is mine and I've used that sucker on two inch bamboo that had half inch thick walls. After 50 cuts, (yeah I know that ain't terribly much), the wrap didn't loosen nor were there any other problems with his work. I'm satisfied. If you don't like what you've seen in the past, okay, fine. My experience is different. Next, is a panel wrap a modern invention? No. I have seen it on original tsuka from the 1600's. That's not exactly modern. Is a full wrap worth it to a practitioner? Yes as it does add resistance to shifting/wear over the years. Just my two cents. Don't like it or have experienced something different? Fine. Don't enter into a pissing contest with me because I won't entertain it. Thanks for listening gentlemen. I have no dog in the USAs tsuka refurb market, i have never heard of Sal, i am a european. With all due respect, and certainly no desire to measure the contents of our respective bladders; I'm assuming that every single cut you have made with the sword is either a Kesa or an horizontal, to a tameshigiri on a stand, or similarly orientated target? If it is, and you you can correct me if I am wrong, these are the cuts that are made as tameshigiri that do not require a very special tsuka, other than it is strong. It does need saying that this practice is not a very large part of kenjutsu, and the tameshigiri cuts are not very prominent in the art of fghting with a katana. Maybe this can explain a difference between the priorities of tsuka between these two ways.
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