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Post by zabazagobo on Jul 7, 2016 18:59:06 GMT
Hi everyone. I've been lurking for a while and figured now was a good time to ask some questions. I'm not hugely experienced with modern production katana. I've been reading a lot and studying and, of course, am as confused as when I began. I purchased two katana so far, both from Ronin's S&D sale- a Dojo Pro and a Dojo Elite. For the price of less than full pop for one Elite, I got two swords, and I feel pretty good about the purchases. I really like both swords and absolutely love the Elite. That said, there were some issues, being S&D swords (though they were relatively minor), and I'm interested in a non-second at this point. I have the dreaded collector's disease. Disclosure: I haven't trained yet, have not joined a dojo nor have I attempted to cut anything with the swords I have. I do enjoy their aesthetics, but I eventually would like to cut with any swords I may own, so functionality is key. My intentions for future cutting exercises will be soft targets, more or less targets katana are designed to cut, such as mats, etc. The price range I am interested in is not going below $600 and don't want to go much above $1200. Thus far, I have zeroed in on the following swords at the prices listed. I have included a blurb about what I find attractive about each sword and what I am hesitant about. Ronin Hammer Forged - $650. Pro: I like that the design is unique (semi-custom). I am attracted to the looks of folded steel and T-10 steel seems to be a good overall durability choice from what I gather. I have two Ronins from different lines and like them enough to buy Ronin again. Con: There seems to be only one left, so I am not going to be able to choose what design I want. Theme is a little flashy for me and I would really like something more subdued and traditional. Ronin Elite- $825-850. Pro: I have one already and really love the looks of the laminated blade, and the forging method hopefully will prove to be both effective and durable. Fit and finish, even on my S&D, seem very well done- wrap is tight, everything secure and safe as well as attractive. I really like the feel of the tsuka in my hand and like the looks of the rikko style carving. Lots of choices for theme. There are still enough left in stock that I can pick a theme I like. I have my eye on two. Con: I have one already. For the price, am I getting value for dollar or will I be better served with a different forging type and a different brand? Hanwei 30th Anniversary Musashi- About $860. Pro: Fits pretty well with my aesthetic sense with a more subdued theme. Hanwei is well known and established. K120C steel, at least with my experiences with it in the knife world, is fine steel. Folded forging. Con: I don't necessarily want a bo-hi on my blade but it's not a deal-killer. From what I have read, Hanwei's tsukas seem to be a little on the chunky side and quality control may vary greatly, which puts me on the defensive. Hanwei Bamboo Mat- About $700 Pro: Definitely fits in with my preferred aesthetic sense. The blade cross-section seems to have some niku to it, which is another preference for me, but like above, not 100% necessary. Con: See above as far as QC and tsuka design, at least what I've heard. Also, the steel seems to be a step or two down from the Musashi, as it is HWS-2S. As I understand it, Hanwei has their proprietary HWS-1S and HWS-2S steels. I should probably educate myself a little more on this steel before discounting either. Hanwei Tori Elite- About $720. Pro: The price, quite frankly. I have not generally seen this sword below $850-900, so it would seem to be a steal. Though not very traditional, I do like the design. The suede ito is interesting. Everything I've ever read, most owners love the sword. The steel is K120C, folded, and tends to get good reviews. Con: Same as the rest of the Hanweis- QC and fit and finish. Blade geometry may not be what I would ultimately like- taller, thinner, shallower sori. There is little niku, which leads me to question how the sword will behave with bad form. Bugei Samurai or Crane- $1250. Pro: All the things I read about Bugei are superlative. The blades are choice, the fit and finish is close to impeccable and several choices across their line. The Samurai is their heaviest, most durable blade and the Crane is relatively close. They have nice choices for blade and tsuka length, which is very intriguing. Con: Price. This is probably my biggest hangup right now, as these folks are nearly twice the amount of many of the other katana I'm considering. I don't really know if what Bugei charges is worth it. I'm not in love with the themes at my price range but that's my own personal issue, not at all objective. As you can see, I still have a lot to ponder but would like to hear what more experienced collectors and practitioners have to say. I am not looking to use or own a sword for a time and then trade; I intend to keep whatever I buy and eventually give one or more to my son so we can enjoy the blades together. I am attempting to see what the consensus is on blade quality, fit and finish and overall value for money is. Any other brands to consider at this price range? Thanks ahead. Given your background and interests, here's my $0.02 on each option. Ronin Hammer Forged - I'd look at the elite. The laminated blade is more appealing in my opinion. Ronin Elite- A properly laminated blade at this pricepoint is great. I'm not a fan of Ronin's "reverse" hazuya polish or fittings, but that's personal preference. Plenty of good words about these swords online, but they're susceptible to issues with blade geometry. Hanwei 30th Anniversary Musashi- I like this sword, although it had a number of issues out of the box that required fixing. The bo-hi puts it in a "cut with caution" sphere for me, and I really have to re-emphasize that there are several issues with quality control that required work. If you don't feel comfortable with tsuka disassembly or saya shimming, I'd consider other options. That being said, given no problems (which can happen to any production blade, not just this one) this blade handles wonderfully, has the best tsuka shape and ito-maki I've handled on a Hanwei and doesn't feel nearly as "axe"-ish as my Hanwei Bushido does. The silk ito is also very comfortable and has minimal fraying. Hanwei Bamboo Mat- HWS steel is still on my 'bucket list' of swords to try. Pretty much the only complaint I've heard of the bamboo mat is that it is tip heavy. I like Hanwei's cotton ito; it has a good texture and soaks up sweat from heavy practice well. Hanwei Tori Elite- This is on my short list of swords to still buy (the price on Amazon with prime shipping at the moment is appealing) as it's received heavy praise and was used by respectable and talented martial artists such as Masayuki Shimabukuro (you can see him posing with it on the cover of his book "Samurai Swordsmanship". The tori elite has leather ito, which you'll have to consider the classic leather vs. cotton vs. silk ito debate as to whether or not you'd like leather the best. Bugei Samurai or Crane- These use the same steel as Hanwei's offerings, but retail for almost double the price. I've read plenty of accounts of individuals who purchase the Samurai only to find that it doesn't have enough niku (whereas it is advertised as having "heavy niku") with an account presented over on SFI going so far as to state "I handled three Bugei Samurais and all three were different blades", implying the quality control may unfortunately not be as good as you'd hope for the price. Before buying Bugei I'd recommend taking the advice of Richard Arias or others who've mentioned taking, say, a Bushido and refitting it with a better tsuka; the custom work on an off the shelf Hanwei will put you in the same price range as Bugei, plus you can get a full rayskin wrap (something Bugei refuses to do for some reason) In my opinion it boils down to whether you want silk, cotton or leather ito and/or whether or not you want to spend the money on a custom tsuka. I'd toss in Hanwei's Bushido as an option (I really, really like that sword a little too much; handling is great one-handed), but it probably doesn't fit the aesthetic you're shooting for. Also, what kind of use do you plan on putting the blade to and what kind of style do you prefer? One sword or two?
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Post by wyndonp on Jul 8, 2016 4:32:41 GMT
I think after reading all the insightful comments I am now really leaning toward just either the Bamboo Mat or the Tori Elite and doing a revamped tsuka (recarved and rewrapped). I will probably do the same later with my Ronin Elite and get some new fittings for it in the meantime.
Now, just need to decide on a custom house to do the work... Luckily some of you folks had some good places to start.
Thanks.
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Post by omgkenobi on Jul 9, 2016 0:06:30 GMT
I took a chance on Swords of Northshire because the customer reviews were excellent and customer service answered my questions perfectly. They promised a traditional hineri maki wrap with no glue to attach the kashira, informed me when I chose a tsuba, in the catalog, that it was alloy and offered to upgrade to copper tsuba without any extra charge, etc. They also emailed me seven photos of my katana for my approval BEFORE the sword ships(photos attached). They were knowledgeable about the effect of various processes on the swords (clay temper, folding, etc.) and helped me chose the kind of steel I would want in my blade. Yes, I probably paid more than I had to, but the extra I paid eliminated any doubt/randomness about the quality of my purchase. It was well worth the extra money to get that peace of mind. I think the best way to think of Swords of Northshire is that they are a sword broker--they help you navigate the world of multiple Chinese forges to find what you want, for what I consider a modest fee. p.s. - Final price includes shipping, as well--so maybe their profit margin isn't as big as one might think.
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Post by Richard Arias on Jul 9, 2016 0:58:55 GMT
Looks like a standard long quan eBay katana. What was the tag $p 200 shipped?
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Post by Kiyoshi on Jul 9, 2016 5:45:19 GMT
They actually make way more than you'd think for those swords. They are cheaply made by underpaid warehouse workers. They make enough that they can send them for free to us and still make a sweet profit. It's kinda like feiyue shoes (which I wear). They are great shoes, they only cost about $3 USD if you buy them in China (according to my teacher). People can afford to buy them there in bulk and ship them here and sell them for $20 and still be making a good profit. You may think that isn't a lot, only like what, $10 after shipping? That's still 50% profit. Imagine those numbers with $200 swords. Now, I may be exaggerating a little (on the swords, not the shoes) but they still make good profit. They wouldn't sell the swords if they didn't make enough money to keep the business going when they could spend the time doing something else. People, especially here in the US, don't normally do something as a business unless they make some kind of profit that makes it worth doing instead of making profit some other way.
Edit: Richard is correct. The ceiling for that sword should only be about $200 max. It's pretty run of the mill for an eBay katana.
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Post by nddave on Jul 9, 2016 20:21:11 GMT
Definitely sub $200 as the recent SoN katana review posted earlier pretty much revealed. Ironically I don't see why people risk Ebay when they can honestly get better Q/C and similar performance from a Musashi Line Katana like the Shirakawa or up like their Gold and Silver series. $100-$250 for just about anything Ebay seems to churns out. Are those synthetic ito colors and tsuba options really that important to pay double what Musashi offers for a DH 1060, DH T-10 or pattern welded 1045/1060 blade? It seems like just about anything you find on the Ebay market for $200-$400 can be had by Musashi (minus the customization options) for half the price and higher quality control.
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Post by johnwalter on Jul 10, 2016 13:58:21 GMT
Standard $150 eBay katana,worth about half that as far as cost.Musashi $100 shirakawa series is the better deal IMO.
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Post by Salvatori Moretto: Koala Forge on Jul 11, 2016 11:55:49 GMT
"Sal is a nice guy and I like him. Having said that I had to have a semi custom of his reworked by nihonzashi. His wrap was literally coming untied at the end knot. It was a waste because the suede ito could not be reused. The tsuka core was decent that he did and the same' wrap was competent. But he did not replace the mekugi (hanwei factory ones are soft lacking strength and friction fit). The Tsuba was not properly fitted, and neither was the saya (Sal bought a $70 eBay saya and used it without properly fitting the koiguchi). But his knot and tie work needs a good amount of work. If the wrap is just going to fall apart there is no point. Looking at his wraps he just needs to work on the end knot and tie." Hello everyone. Thought I'd chine im as I was brought up. Saya was the same saya that I purchased the blade in, I did not go to ebay and buy one, nor have I ever for any of my projects. The wrap he is talking about "coming undone" was the first and only wrap where I had used tsunami ito(fake suede) and I was not able to work with it well though others can do an amazing Job like Josh Marlan, I simple chose not to work with it anymore. Many of the things you like to bring up are a matter of me learning. I can assure you the wraps Josh put out at the beginning pale in comparison to the amazing work he puts out more recently, But that can be said for anyone who chooses to learn an art.
And funny as you mention end knots, look at the green knot you posted, The knot is properly shaped as all of mine are now. Overall, Richard, you were the secondhand owner of ONE of my projects, stop trying to pass judgment over all of my work. My work is guaranteed for the first owner from any failure in craftsmanship including loose wraps, and even tsuka cracks when cutting. Off to work, I'll respond to the original intention of this thread with my opinion on sword choices when I get home from work this evening :) Sorry for assisting in hijacking the thread, it was not my intention. Cheers, Sal
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Post by johnwalter on Jul 11, 2016 14:15:16 GMT
Well said Sal. Very nice looking work.
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Post by Kiyoshi on Jul 11, 2016 20:44:11 GMT
That clears that up. I hadn't heard anything but praise on your work so I wasn't sure. I look forward to your opinion on the op's purchase options.
I like those tsuka too. Even and professional as always.
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Post by Richard Arias on Jul 11, 2016 21:54:28 GMT
Salvatori Moretto Avatar Jul 11, 2016 4:55:49 GMT -7 Salvatori Moretto said: Richard Arias Avatar Jul 3, 2016 15:28:08 GMT -7 Richard Arias said: "Sal is a nice guy and I like him. Having said that I had to have a semi custom of his reworked by nihonzashi. His wrap was literally coming untied at the end knot. It was a waste because the suede ito could not be reused. The tsuka core was decent that he did and the same' wrap was competent. But he did not replace the mekugi (hanwei factory ones are soft lacking strength and friction fit). The Tsuba was not properly fitted, and neither was the saya (Sal bought a $70 eBay saya and used it without properly fitting the koiguchi). But his knot and tie work needs a good amount of work. If the wrap is just going to fall apart there is no point. Looking at his wraps he just needs to work on the end knot and tie."
Hello everyone. Thought I'd chine im as I was brought up. Saya was the same saya that I purchased the blade in, I did not go to ebay and buy one, nor have I ever for any of my projects. The wrap he is talking about "coming undone" was the first and only wrap where I had used tsunami ito(fake suede) and I was not able to work with it well though others can do an amazing Job like Josh Marlan, I simple chose not to work with it anymore. Many of the things you like to bring up are a matter of me learning. I can assure you the wraps Josh put out at the beginning pale in comparison to the amazing work he puts out more recently, But that can be said for anyone who chooses to learn an art. And funny as you mention end knots, look at the green knot you posted, The knot is properly shaped as all of mine are now. Overall, Richard, you were the secondhand owner of ONE of my projects, stop trying to pass judgment over all of my work. My work is guaranteed for the first owner from any failure in craftsmanship including loose wraps, and even tsuka cracks when cutting. Off to work, I'll respond to the original intention of this thread with my opinion on sword choices when I get home from work this evening :) Sorry for assisting in hijacking the thread, it was not my intention. Cheers, Sal
Well the owner you bought it from claims to have owned a few of your works and like me had to rewrap them. And he also claims you knew where he bought the saya from as he told you when you bought it or that he sold it to you cant remember wich. In fact his opinion was something like "his work is not to the point where I would pay him for it". So talk to him on that. Before I bought that blade I asked you about it and you mentioned nothing of what you have just mentioned here. In fact you said you with you had it back because it was such a good piece. In the high resolution pics of the bo hi dragon blade their looks to be a piece of fray on the knot and it raises a red flag a bit. When I talked to you about making a deal for it I had already contacted Nihonzashi to make sure it could be ironed and reused for a new wrap. But you sold it and good for you.
Your new pics look better. But I have seen pics of nice production sword wraps and watched them fall apart after use. The orchid as far as I can tell (assuming all its previous owners were honest) only cut 8 mats and was used for kata. So light use lead the sword to be unsafe for use. You might want to consider letting your customers know your learner status. If you had told me your story about the orchid wrap I would not have bought it. But you didn't then. In fact you encouraged me to buy I sword that you sort of admit now you were dissatisfied with... Not very ethical.
This is actually relevant to the topic because people who have only seen pics of your work are rushing to defend you. Because of pictures they have seen and things they heard not from personal experience. Much like many of the blade opinions "where is the beef?" Wrap aside there was the poor fit saya and the bad mekugi on my piece. In my posting I meant to make known that in many areas you are still "Green". And that is not only in craft but use of a sword. And that is kinda my point that there are a lot of people who could do work cheaper, but you do get what you pay for.
If John is up for it wrap a blade for him. Have him use it for his class and cutting for 6months to a year and he can let everyone know how its doing. That might be good feedback for you.
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Post by wazikan on Jul 11, 2016 23:44:52 GMT
im kind of the opinion that you shouldn't slam someones work unless you have first hand information. the katana that I just had rehandled. was rehandled by someone on this board. but I did not pay money for that man to do it so I cant say if the misaligned work was his fault or the katana came with the defects. but I have gotten another blade rehandled by the same guy and he does great work. so to slam him off what another person told me would be uncool.
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Jul 11, 2016 23:54:50 GMT
One more time, friends, I am asking that the discussion get sat back on track. If the OP specifically decides to buy a sword and have it worked on, and asks advice on possible candidates for such work, then we can revisit that aspect. Until he does, please refrain from clogging up the thread with more talk about something that may not even be a part of his purchase plan. Thank you.
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Post by Richard Arias on Jul 12, 2016 2:29:52 GMT
One more time, friends, I am asking that the discussion get sat back on track. If the OP specifically decides to buy a sword and have it worked on, and asks advice on possible candidates for such work, then we can revisit that aspect. Until he does, please refrain from clogging up the thread with more talk about something that may not even be a part of his purchase plan. Thank you. Sorry boss Since a PM was not sent and that it is assumed I am "slamming" work I wanted to clear it up. Plus my public response was only because the OP stated that custom work gave him a lot to think on. And since sal is an option being pushed on forums lately I felt it something he need to know as it can help him towards a decision and avoid possible any pitfalls. For some people custom work is a lot of leg work and the OP might decide to avoid it.
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Post by Croccifixio on Jul 12, 2016 8:27:26 GMT
One more time, friends, I am asking that the discussion get sat back on track. If the OP specifically decides to buy a sword and have it worked on, and asks advice on possible candidates for such work, then we can revisit that aspect. Until he does, please refrain from clogging up the thread with more talk about something that may not even be a part of his purchase plan. Thank you. Sorry boss Since a PM was not sent and that it is assumed I am "slamming" work I wanted to clear it up. Plus my public response was only because the OP stated that custom work gave him a lot to think on. And since sal is an option being pushed on forums lately I felt it something he need to know as it can help him towards a decision and avoid possible any pitfalls. For some people custom work is a lot of leg work and the OP might decide to avoid it. That's fine if you have firsthand info, which would be the initial impression of anyone reading your first posts on Sal's work. But as you've laid it out, the negative information about Sal you claim to have is hearsay. It might have been more acceptable if you made a disclaimer from the very start that the opinion is based on your friend's experience (which would help, but wouldn't really be given as much credit as a firsthand account). At the same time, you pushed for your favorite nihonzashi makers (that you like mentioning every so often). All well and good. But the overall slant that seemingly favors nihonzashi a bit too much and speaks badly of their competition discredits the post and turns it from being merely informative into some kind of advertising.
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Post by Richard Arias on Jul 12, 2016 8:53:42 GMT
im kind of the opinion that you shouldn't slam someones work unless you have first hand information. the katana that I just had rehandled. was rehandled by someone on this board. but I did not pay money for that man to do it so I cant say if the misaligned work was his fault or the katana came with the defects. but I have gotten another blade rehandled by the same guy and he does great work. so to slam him off what another person told me would be uncool. Everyone is making recommendations largely on swords they have only heard about or seen in posts, videos ex. So when you read a review and then regurgitate the same info is that not somewhat worse? People keep recommending swords like the Bamboo mat or Tori ex. Many not really owning or using them in a class or cutting for an extended period. But more because of popular opinion. The hanwei HWS- steel blades for example owning 2 now and feeling they are Just "OK " there are so many fine and basic details lacking that what the steel might do in 1,000 cuts is almost not a consideration. I can say that for almost every hanwei I have owned or cut with (which is maybe 10 or so models). With production companies sword wise you kinda play Russian Roulette hoping you get a good one. Its why I encouraged semi custom work so the OP can be sure of quality should he choose a skilled shop. For a custom shop you get judged on a project to project basis, so If you can't make work up to a standard don't do it. Skip Gardner used to refuse to do wraps at times if the core on the blade was not up to standard for his work to last. Same with mekugi or the like. That's what a shop should do. The OP should be getting pictures from owners and users long term data. Many swords can be sweet out of the box like a new car off the lot. There are a lot of backyard and JSA people here who can show video and pics. OP needs more then "hey get this blade because its great". People generally believed hira zukuri is a weak geometry (many still do). Then Walter Sorrells turned a 2x4 into kindling and shaved hair after. Can anyone give the OP a post in that spirit regarding their recommended blade?
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Post by Richard Arias on Jul 12, 2016 9:18:12 GMT
Sorry boss Since a PM was not sent and that it is assumed I am "slamming" work I wanted to clear it up. Plus my public response was only because the OP stated that custom work gave him a lot to think on. And since sal is an option being pushed on forums lately I felt it something he need to know as it can help him towards a decision and avoid possible any pitfalls. For some people custom work is a lot of leg work and the OP might decide to avoid it. That's fine if you have firsthand info, which would be the initial impression of anyone reading your first posts on Sal's work. But as you've laid it out, the negative information about Sal you claim to have is hearsay. It might have been more acceptable if you made a disclaimer from the very start that the opinion is based on your friend's experience (which would help, but wouldn't really be given as much credit as a firsthand account). At the same time, you pushed for your favorite nihonzashi makers (that you like mentioning every so often). All well and good. But the overall slant that seemingly favors nihonzashi a bit too much and speaks badly of their competition discredits the post and turns it from being merely informative into some kind of advertising. There are a lot of moved on guys I would like to mention (Skip. Aaron Justice Ex.) But they are gone. My experience with sal and his work is mine. And I have had a few PMs on SFI that eco my experience. I favor Nihonzashi for quite a few reasons years of experience in their work are good ones. And there's the fact that they still exist in a real shop as an accredited business and not just on a forum or Facebook page. I owned a piece from Sal. The ito and blade didn't show much use, let the end know was coming untied. Also the mekugi, saya Tsuba issues ex. Yet again people have seen good looking pictures and "heard nothing but good things" and that is not slanting of a worse kind because unlike me they don't own what they are offering opinions on? And its all here say because most are not offering pics or review just words. Everyone gets all touchy when I don't agree with popular opinion. But I have had the opposite experience. how many people who disagree hare their opinion from first hand and not from some other source?
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Post by Richard Arias on Jul 12, 2016 9:31:13 GMT
I think after reading all the insightful comments I am now really leaning toward just either the Bamboo Mat or the Tori Elite and doing a revamped tsuka (recarved and rewrapped). I will probably do the same later with my Ronin Elite and get some new fittings for it in the meantime. Now, just need to decide on a custom house to do the work... Luckily some of you folks had some good places to start. Thanks. www.toyamaryu.org/KatanaShinken2006.htm#topSome Data for you to sift through if you wish sir.
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Post by jammer on Jul 12, 2016 20:16:39 GMT
Full rayskin is a total waste of effort on a katana, imo. I do broadly agree with the semi-custom route from a hanwei blade, but not a full wrap, panels are better, imo. As a side, are all hanwei (say dojo pro) nakago/tsuka interface the same? Is it possible, given their production methods, to splash out on a tsuka and buy a new blade from time to time and fit it to the expensive new tsuka? Why do you say that? I agree that if its a well made tsuka core and the Ito Maki is done well the handle will still be strong enough to last years. But a full wrap is equal parts flash (showing you spent the money on a full wrap of choice skin) and function. If you look at a panel tsuka vs a full wrap there is less wear and damage to the wood. When I sent my old senei's waki in to be rewrapped the tsuka had 10 years of hard use on it from him and he got it from his sensei in Japan so I assumed maybe the same years of use there and the tsuka had only 1 hairline crack. Full wraps also give the Ito traction and I can say that the into migrates less over time. Full wraps also reenforce the tsuka for strength and allow for a slimline core. Those are worthy trade offs to me. Panels are done to save money. It is actually more work carving channels to put the strips but you can get many strips from a good skin and maybe 2 good full wraps. And as for fitting a blade to a tsuka... Its a bad idea as it would not be reliable. Wakizashi is fine, better in fact, for full wrap, tanto too. Full wrap on a katana with ito is a negative investment. Paying extra to make your katana worse.
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Post by wazikan on Jul 12, 2016 22:55:18 GMT
I really cannot wrap my head around why a full wrap would be a bad investment. I guess if you are just buying to resell. the whole idea on the strips is to same money by getting you a cheaply made handle. I can understand if you want to same money and not have that changed. but to say that it makes the katana worse? im assuming that you worded that wrong.
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