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Post by Kiyoshi on Jul 4, 2016 2:24:14 GMT
You can't argue with a Josh done sword when it comes to quality. I'd take a custom sword by him over most things. Out of the box though, I'd choose bugei. The hanwei tori elite was used by a very strong MJER practitioner. I'd assume it has good quality from that and the Swedish powdered steel is attractive.
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Post by Richard Arias on Jul 4, 2016 3:02:37 GMT
That came off as very polite and I thank you for that. My main thing is that I don't think you quite understand my position. It isn't that nihonzashi is bad or that the OP shouldn't do as you suggested, it is that I think that a practical plus ($329 on KoA, $420+ on nohonzashi) May not be the best sword to spend $300 on a new tsuka when there are blades that are nicer. I'm not a fan of huawei or any eBay reseller when it comes to steel quality since we have reason to believe they are deceptive and we know that the majority, if not all, swords bought by members were softer than they should have been. Hanwei has been shown to be really good when it comes to steel quality from different members and my own experience. With a bamboo mat is only $500, it would be a better investment to get that, and if he feels like it, getting it reworked, for only $80 more than the nihonzashi practical plus. The geometry, to me, is worth the extra $80. I do put value on certain things that don't make THAT much of a difference (yokote for instance), but if I wanted nothing but pure use, I would get a cheap raptor and not bother with the tsuka. Even loose ito can still work. I value certain things because of their craftsmanship but as for overal, I'm a very practical, black on black, no frill iron fittings kind of guy. As for Sal, that is the first complaint I have heard of his stuff. I've seen others enjoy what he put out. Did you see if he'd fix it? I like nohonzashi's offerings for the fittings but I'm not a fan of their tsuka as much as I am some others like Cottontail Customs. Yeah nihonzashi isn't as pretty as a few other offerings, but its solid fair priced work. A silk ito rewrap is only $120 someone top notch like Robin Ramirez or Keith Larhman is I believe still $300 for just the wrap. Randy black also does better work but his mounts are about 1k+ depending on options. Sal has promise but I dont think many people have heavily used his tsuka and wrap work. And its not like he has had a long wrap history to see where they stand years later. Not to say every wrap Sal does is bad... Just that the end knots are a weak link. I cant find any test cutting video or long term use review from any swordsman or sensei on Huawei. So to me they are a pretty hamon and not to much more. But I would call hanwei McDonald's (sometimes you get a tasty meal most times its just OK) Yeah you know what to expect with hanwei, but in my case that is maybe a usable blade out of the box, but will always need upgrades. The few bamboo mats I have seen are very similar to hanwei Elite geometry with a different hamon. And I would use the Practical Elite for being slightly thicker. But even at $500 the half price sharpening/repair is what sells nihonzashi. Between the two I don't see a difference worth the price gap.
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Post by Richard Arias on Jul 4, 2016 3:39:18 GMT
You can't argue with a Josh done sword when it comes to quality. I'd take a custom sword by him over most things. Out of the box though, I'd choose bugei. The hanwei tori elite was used by a very strong MJER practitioner. I'd assume it has good quality from that and the Swedish powdered steel is attractive. The question is why? Again you assume a lot here. The Swedish steel in the tori and bugei your banking a lot on, but its nothing more then a decent steel that they know like the back of their hand. So it gives fewer surprises and they can have (on paper) fewer possible variations. For example the 1566 the Practical Elite uses is a basic Spring steel with between .6-.7% carbon and .85-1.15% manganese. For mass production that is a big gap. The Swedish steel being powdered means its atomized together so that gap is way smaller in differential ranges. I also suspect the practical are machined all the way through their process (automated heat treat even) so even though the tori is folded steel (I also suspect machined) it has less variation so results can be closer to expectations. But in a battle or a Tori Elite over a Practical Elite.... They're identical in specks and geomtey. The $600 (Via KOA) price gap is the pretty fittings and folded steel. But spend that getting the mount upgraded and blade sharpened. You have a better overall sword in the hand tuning and attention given by the custom shop. The marginal steel performance difference (assuming both are good specimens) would not be seen for maybe a year of cutting. And if the Practical blade got dull first you only need pay $40 to make it good as new. And the bugei... $1250... Same price you can totally repolish and refit many other blades to be better. Look at my pics of the hand polished KC. Shipping and all cost Me $700 to get it bought and repolished. That's a $550 you can splurge on the tsuka. Your going a lot on perception and that is my point. My 5160 hira won events over $3,000 blades with a good swordsman behind it. More leg work, but worth it for not just another blade off the line.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2016 12:42:35 GMT
I must have been getting absolutely stupid deals because the only time one of Randy Black's mounts came over $1000 for me was doing a full rayskin wrapped 30+ inch saya, and a set of nicely shaped silver seppa and some menuki. And that sword was totally an exercise in decadence LOL. Looking over his price list I don't know what I'd have to do to get into the ball park of two thousand US dollars. I'd be getting multiple sets of koshirae done up for the same blade with tsunagi and still be under. Whatever.
The koshirae is super important, it's the interface to the blade. There's probably a point where it doesn't make sense to sink cash into a sword that isn't that great. If you've got a favorite production one, that's where tossing a couple extra hundred for having it reworked makes the most sense.
If you're talking straight out of the box, it's probably close enough to a wash between upgrading and just buying the higher priced sword. You might slightly edge out the off-the-shelf one but it's not likely to be a knock out difference.
If I buy a sword on-line, if it doesn't feel right or I don't like the sharpness I can just send it back for a refund. I can do it two or three times in a row if I need to to get the right one. If I order a semi-custom that someone just spent time and effort tearing down the tsuka and then regrinding the edge and I decide I don't like it, how many times is that guy going to let me send it back and trade it out? How long do I have to wait each time?
There's always a trade off.
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Post by jammer on Jul 4, 2016 15:24:33 GMT
Full rayskin is a total waste of effort on a katana, imo.
I do broadly agree with the semi-custom route from a hanwei blade, but not a full wrap, panels are better, imo.
As a side, are all hanwei (say dojo pro) nakago/tsuka interface the same? Is it possible, given their production methods, to splash out on a tsuka and buy a new blade from time to time and fit it to the expensive new tsuka?
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Post by Richard Arias on Jul 4, 2016 20:46:15 GMT
Full rayskin is a total waste of effort on a katana, imo. I do broadly agree with the semi-custom route from a hanwei blade, but not a full wrap, panels are better, imo. As a side, are all hanwei (say dojo pro) nakago/tsuka interface the same? Is it possible, given their production methods, to splash out on a tsuka and buy a new blade from time to time and fit it to the expensive new tsuka? Why do you say that? I agree that if its a well made tsuka core and the Ito Maki is done well the handle will still be strong enough to last years. But a full wrap is equal parts flash (showing you spent the money on a full wrap of choice skin) and function. If you look at a panel tsuka vs a full wrap there is less wear and damage to the wood. When I sent my old senei's waki in to be rewrapped the tsuka had 10 years of hard use on it from him and he got it from his sensei in Japan so I assumed maybe the same years of use there and the tsuka had only 1 hairline crack. Full wraps also give the Ito traction and I can say that the into migrates less over time. Full wraps also reenforce the tsuka for strength and allow for a slimline core. Those are worthy trade offs to me. Panels are done to save money. It is actually more work carving channels to put the strips but you can get many strips from a good skin and maybe 2 good full wraps. And as for fitting a blade to a tsuka... Its a bad idea as it would not be reliable.
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Post by johnwalter on Jul 4, 2016 22:56:45 GMT
In my experience Mr.Black is cheaper than Nihonzashi,by a fair amount.
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Post by Richard Arias on Jul 4, 2016 23:59:21 GMT
In my experience Mr.Black is cheaper than Nihonzashi,by a fair amount. I emailed him to ask what the current prices are and his backlog time. I know people who can do cheaper work, but I like that Nihonzashi has a Dojo and sword shop. They have been around for years and while have been slow to email at times have never been more than a call away. Many people have gone the fly by night route keeping blades customer's owned. Not to say that Randy would do this as I have only ever seen or heard good things from his work. Nihonzashi is more expensive due to more overhead, but I don't mind supporting that as they have been doing work for me for almost 10 years. Since the dojo students are also employed by the shop doing work I don't see them going anywhere. I also like eyes of experience (ranked swordsman) doing my craft work. Same reason I go on my cheat days to a local owned cheese steak joint and pay $13 for a sandwich. When I know I could go to subway or just make one at home. Loyal I guess :)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2016 2:07:19 GMT
Randy Black has proven himself to be a stand up guy, I've trusted him with financially and sentimentally important blades for myself and as gifts for two of my teachers. Every time he has more than come through and there is no reason to doubt his work or his ethics.
If he doubled his prices I'd still try to get him to get my swords and related items taken care of, I'd just have to do it less often.
It's good to have people who's work you like and that you trust. We don't have to start hinting about unfounded worries. Let's just not go there unless you have some hard data.
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Post by Richard Arias on Jul 5, 2016 2:37:59 GMT
Randy Black has proven himself to be a stand up guy, I've trusted him with financially and sentimentally important blades for myself and as gifts for two of my teachers. Every time he has more than come through and there is no reason to doubt his work or his ethics. If he doubled his prices I'd still try to get him to get my swords and related items taken care of, I'd just have to do it less often. It's good to have people who's work you like and that you trust. We don't have to start hinting about unfounded worries. Let's just not go there unless you have some hard data. I was actually not implying that at all. But many other guys over the years (Skip Gardner, John Smith, Tom Guez, Bandon Thell ex.) Have made sending things to craftsmen a bit more of a process. I was just clarifying my not caring about spending a little extra to work with a shop I trust same as your clarification in your trust of Randy. I respect his work, but have not worked with him. Maybe I will as I have a blade in need of a Saya.
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Post by Robert in California on Jul 5, 2016 3:33:11 GMT
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Post by Kiyoshi on Jul 5, 2016 3:39:27 GMT
I'm not making assumptions, just unsaid propositions. I didn't feel the need to state them as it is common for people to know about the properties of Swedish steel. When forged by Hanwei it produces a generally considered attractive grain. I said only that Swedish steel is attractive, not that it is anything more than what it is. The tori being good quality comes from these propositions: Shimabukuro makes a living using swords and has handled numerous blades. As he makes a living using them, he has had much time to learn about swords and how they feel and what makes good quality and what doesn't. Since he has had much time to learn about swords, he is knowledgeable. To my knowledge, he was not sponsored by Hanwei nor did he go through extra effort to promote their swords. Because of those t hings his testimony on their quality is likely trustworthy. He approves of their quality, therefor I feel justified in saying they are likely good quality. Do I know in a qualia like sense? No, but I have good reason to believe it do to that, others' testimony, and a slew of other facts. I don't feel the need to state them all every time. All of that aside, the OP was looking for something out of the box, if that is what they wish, I still stand by bugei or hanwei. Yeah, if you put in the time or effort, you can get a lot for your dime. That applies to just about everything. Building your own PC is cheaper, couponing is cheaper, making your own fittings is cheaper. Some people don't have the time and money. I personally work so much that I've had 1 day off in the past 10 days just to afford my dinky apartment, I most certainly don't have the time to do all of this, and maybe the OP does but just doesn't want to. That's fine too. My advice to the OP was for the question they asked and nothing more.
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Post by Kiyoshi on Jul 5, 2016 3:44:45 GMT
I've never been a fan of fancy hamon so I would mark that as a negative. I enjoy the simple style of the fittings though. The polish is nice and the choice of habaki suits it well. I don't feel that the kojiri fits well with the overall style of the blade. It seems to disrupt the eye. The speckling on the saya fits with the utility combined with elegance that the overall theme seems to have. If the steel is tempered well, this would be a fine piece to those who find its hamon pleasing. Overall, I feel like it is a tad expensive but worth it if you want a light cutter with appealing aesthetics. I had to take art critique classes in school... That kinda showed, lol.
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Post by wazikan on Jul 5, 2016 18:04:43 GMT
ive had randy black mount 2 blades so far. once he took a bare blade and did everything. that was pricey but a lot of work. the second he used the hardware I provided and remade a whole new tsuka and refinished the saya. it was no where near that high. I believe it was about 1/2 that.
but like a lot of things. it all comes down to what your comfortable with. if you have a blade that you think is shaped good and cuts well and you want new shoes. then more power to ya.
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Post by Lynx on Jul 5, 2016 22:02:15 GMT
Hanwei Tori Elite- About $720. Pro: The price, quite frankly. I have not generally seen this sword below $850-900, so it would seem to be a steal. Though not very traditional, I do like the design. The suede ito is interesting. Everything I've ever read, most owners love the sword. The steel is K120C, folded, and tends to get good reviews. Con: Same as the rest of the Hanweis- QC and fit and finish. Blade geometry may not be what I would ultimately like- taller, thinner, shallower sori. There is little niku, which leads me to question how the sword will behave with bad form. Where can you find a Tori Elite for $720? The cheapest I've seen it for is $757 on Amazon, but I don't think I'd get a sword from there.
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Post by wazikan on Jul 5, 2016 22:54:03 GMT
I got my hanwei tiger from KOA on their scratch and dent for about $750, or maybe it was 650. but I couldn't even find out why it was on their S&D section.
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Jul 6, 2016 1:39:05 GMT
Hey, fellas. I'm going to ask that this get reigned in a bit. I've read good things about all the aforementioned customizers, but unless the OP asks about it, I don't see why any more discussion on Randy Black vs. Nohonzashi is necessary. If you have a recommendation on one of the swords he linked, by all means, give your opinion, but lets try to get this back on track.
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Post by Richard Arias on Jul 6, 2016 4:36:28 GMT
I appreciate all the passion I am seeing and the practical advice. As I said, I do some more research, I get more flummoxed. I thought I was in a good range from $600-1200 for a sword that would be great out of the box, but every brand seems to have its proponents and its detractors and I am trying to wade through the information. I'm not beholden to just one brand, so I'm keeping an open mind. There certainly is no end of opinions about katana, and I think that's the fun part- each sword can be as individual as its owner. :) I am in no huge rush to purchase, which is probably saving me from doing something dumb and rash. I'd rather do some more reading and asking questions first. And I'm certainly not just limiting myself to the three brands I mentioned initially. I just have some experience with one brand the others keep coming up in conversation across the web. Though I'm certainly looking for the best quality I can, value for dollar is important. I'd still like it to look good, as well as perform out of the box, but if I can get the best blade for the money and then send it to a custom house to really make it remarkable, I'd consider that too, as I have an idea of a theme I'd like to see, and that would allow me to have a say in the parts going onto my blade. I've actually been looking closely at the Feilong swords Cottontail is offering as well. Again, thanks for all the food for thought. www.ebay.com/itm/Citadel-Lotus-Katana-SC4002-CAS-Iberia-/182195898651?hash=item2a6bb8c91b:g:xNIAAOSwOVpXe8oL Make the man your best offer and see what he says. I would get new mekugi made as friction fit does not really impress me on the stock ones. I wish the blade thicker and the hamon a little wider for a heavy user blade. But before I would buy a Bugei I would buy this blade if I had a gun to my head and had to buy a stock blade. Citadel has many good points and issues are smaller picky ones.
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Post by Kiyoshi on Jul 6, 2016 6:06:10 GMT
And to help, fellow forum member Matthew Jensen (the seller) JUST uploaded a review of that sword to his youtube which I will link here. He does some good reviews so give it a gander if you are considering citadel. Edit: Didn't notice he uploaded the review to the item description, lol.
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Post by wazikan on Jul 6, 2016 18:03:59 GMT
a REALLY good way to save is to get something from the sbg sales forum.
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