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Post by wyndonp on Jun 30, 2016 22:31:40 GMT
Hi everyone. I've been lurking for a while and figured now was a good time to ask some questions. I'm not hugely experienced with modern production katana. I've been reading a lot and studying and, of course, am as confused as when I began. I purchased two katana so far, both from Ronin's S&D sale- a Dojo Pro and a Dojo Elite. For the price of less than full pop for one Elite, I got two swords, and I feel pretty good about the purchases. I really like both swords and absolutely love the Elite. That said, there were some issues, being S&D swords (though they were relatively minor), and I'm interested in a non-second at this point. I have the dreaded collector's disease. Disclosure: I haven't trained yet, have not joined a dojo nor have I attempted to cut anything with the swords I have. I do enjoy their aesthetics, but I eventually would like to cut with any swords I may own, so functionality is key. My intentions for future cutting exercises will be soft targets, more or less targets katana are designed to cut, such as mats, etc. The price range I am interested in is not going below $600 and don't want to go much above $1200. Thus far, I have zeroed in on the following swords at the prices listed. I have included a blurb about what I find attractive about each sword and what I am hesitant about. Ronin Hammer Forged - $650. Pro: I like that the design is unique (semi-custom). I am attracted to the looks of folded steel and T-10 steel seems to be a good overall durability choice from what I gather. I have two Ronins from different lines and like them enough to buy Ronin again. Con: There seems to be only one left, so I am not going to be able to choose what design I want. Theme is a little flashy for me and I would really like something more subdued and traditional. Ronin Elite- $825-850. Pro: I have one already and really love the looks of the laminated blade, and the forging method hopefully will prove to be both effective and durable. Fit and finish, even on my S&D, seem very well done- wrap is tight, everything secure and safe as well as attractive. I really like the feel of the tsuka in my hand and like the looks of the rikko style carving. Lots of choices for theme. There are still enough left in stock that I can pick a theme I like. I have my eye on two. Con: I have one already. For the price, am I getting value for dollar or will I be better served with a different forging type and a different brand? Hanwei 30th Anniversary Musashi- About $860. Pro: Fits pretty well with my aesthetic sense with a more subdued theme. Hanwei is well known and established. K120C steel, at least with my experiences with it in the knife world, is fine steel. Folded forging. Con: I don't necessarily want a bo-hi on my blade but it's not a deal-killer. From what I have read, Hanwei's tsukas seem to be a little on the chunky side and quality control may vary greatly, which puts me on the defensive. Hanwei Bamboo Mat- About $700 Pro: Definitely fits in with my preferred aesthetic sense. The blade cross-section seems to have some niku to it, which is another preference for me, but like above, not 100% necessary. Con: See above as far as QC and tsuka design, at least what I've heard. Also, the steel seems to be a step or two down from the Musashi, as it is HWS-2S. As I understand it, Hanwei has their proprietary HWS-1S and HWS-2S steels. I should probably educate myself a little more on this steel before discounting either. Hanwei Tori Elite- About $720. Pro: The price, quite frankly. I have not generally seen this sword below $850-900, so it would seem to be a steal. Though not very traditional, I do like the design. The suede ito is interesting. Everything I've ever read, most owners love the sword. The steel is K120C, folded, and tends to get good reviews. Con: Same as the rest of the Hanweis- QC and fit and finish. Blade geometry may not be what I would ultimately like- taller, thinner, shallower sori. There is little niku, which leads me to question how the sword will behave with bad form. Bugei Samurai or Crane- $1250. Pro: All the things I read about Bugei are superlative. The blades are choice, the fit and finish is close to impeccable and several choices across their line. The Samurai is their heaviest, most durable blade and the Crane is relatively close. They have nice choices for blade and tsuka length, which is very intriguing. Con: Price. This is probably my biggest hangup right now, as these folks are nearly twice the amount of many of the other katana I'm considering. I don't really know if what Bugei charges is worth it. I'm not in love with the themes at my price range but that's my own personal issue, not at all objective. As you can see, I still have a lot to ponder but would like to hear what more experienced collectors and practitioners have to say. I am not looking to use or own a sword for a time and then trade; I intend to keep whatever I buy and eventually give one or more to my son so we can enjoy the blades together. I am attempting to see what the consensus is on blade quality, fit and finish and overall value for money is. Any other brands to consider at this price range? Thanks ahead.
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Post by skane on Jul 1, 2016 5:39:11 GMT
With preference-priority on cutting performance, from your list, I'd narrow it down to the Bamboo Mat or Tori Elite.
Others to consider would be Feilong Higo or Feilong Iwa Shobu, with stock-mounting or with a remount by Cottontail Customs. Or if you can still find one, a Musashi Masurao, either stock as-is or with a remount by a craftsman. My first choice would be a Masurao, they are EXCELLENT cutters; with a decent stock mounting, and a blade by Alex Zheng, master smith.
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Post by johnwalter on Jul 1, 2016 18:00:33 GMT
My opinion is most Hanwei and all the Bugei may be better than those Ronin.Of course you pay a bit more,but they are worth it. In case you didn't know Bugei are choice blades made by Hanwei.
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Post by johnwalter on Jul 1, 2016 20:57:01 GMT
Other brands that may tickle your fancy,Kaneie,MAS,maybe Dynasty Forge.
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Post by wyndonp on Jul 3, 2016 0:21:49 GMT
Other brands that may tickle your fancy,Kaneie,MAS,maybe Dynasty Forge. Cool. Thanks for the tips, John. I am watching your review of the Kaneie Mountain Spider and have been thinking about that or the Black Tiger if I can land either. It's a shame a lot of these swords aren't available anymore.
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Post by Richard Arias on Jul 3, 2016 4:42:45 GMT
Other brands that may tickle your fancy,Kaneie,MAS,maybe Dynasty Forge. Cool. Thanks for the tips, John. I am watching your review of the Kaneie Mountain Spider and have been thinking about that or the Black Tiger if I can land either. It's a shame a lot of these swords aren't available anymore. Hanwei is hit or miss as are a lot of these mass production forges. For example rather than spending $700-$850 on a higher end hanwei you can buy a more basic blade and upgrade it. For that same money you can get a proper tsuka made, full same' wrap, proper mekugi, a custom ito wrap ex. Starting with a lesser model you can actually get a better sword for the same cash. A quality tsuka will last 10+ years and will make using the sword much more of a pleasure. (A practical plus XL, New Tsuka, full same', New Mekugi, silk Ito wrap, and a full resharpen is $830.65 shipped at Nihonzashi) Huawei is a popular sword but their tsuka are junk. So getting a shop like Nihonzashi to do a new tsuka and wrap would cost $330 shipped. Huawei's most expensive blade is $520 (as of today). So like I said for $850 you can get something even the highest priced hanwei/bugei dont have (Japanese Silk Into, Full same',Proper mekugi and a proper shaped tsuka). What you spend on the blade should be on quality and performance. Why spend $700 on a bamboo mat when it will need that same $300 for a quality tsuka? Unless your already committed to the $1,000 range.
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Post by Kiyoshi on Jul 3, 2016 5:31:20 GMT
I wouldn't exactly say a practical is something you want to spend $300 upgrading though. Don't get me wrong, they are great blades for what they cost, but for a total of $600? No thanks, I'll take something else. If you want fancy, go with bugei or high end hanwei. Their steels are reliable unlike those from huawei or any other eBay reseller. I'm personally not a fan of kaneie since I don't think they are worth their price tag when the one that I got shouldn't have made it through QC. However, if they really fit your fancy, go for it.
Edit: There is a bamboo mat for sale in the classifieds for $500. That might be worth looking into.
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Post by Richard Arias on Jul 3, 2016 8:40:27 GMT
I wouldn't exactly say a practical is something you want to spend $300 upgrading though. Don't get me wrong, they are great blades for what they cost, but for a total of $600? No thanks, I'll take something else. If you want fancy, go with bugei or high end hanwei. Their steels are reliable unlike those from huawei or any other eBay reseller. I'm personally not a fan of kaneie since I don't think they are worth their price tag when the one that I got shouldn't have made it through QC. However, if they really fit your fancy, go for it. Edit: There is a bamboo mat for sale in the classifieds for $500. That might be worth looking into. Have you ever done it? My guess is no... I have been upgrading factory blades into semi customs for about 10 years now and I have never had a problem. The practical elite is a perfect choice being thicker and sturdy good building block. And buying from Nihonzashi gets you a half price sharpening and repairs for life. That is the big bonus. I can build a semi custom practical elite that will cut right there with a Tori or even Hataya kotetsu (for a time). Most people cut mats and other soft targets. I have seen practical used on bamboo, but by good swordsmen. For around the same price you can do it with a Raptor and have an awesome all around blade. Again I am talking results your talking perception. People pay for pretty hamon, "hand polish" and "super steel". Its very much like a trade I just made my Glock gen 3 for an '88 colt commander. And a friend told me "wow you got an American classic for a piece of Tupperware". I think its a mentality of people who can't look at something practically. Hanwei and their super steel was a marketing joke that I have seen no hard value on. Bugei has template hamon like the practical, but the blades are folded and the Polish is slightly better for $800 more.... No thanks to that. Sell me the value of a bamboo mat over buying the semi custom elite from nihonzashi. When I can get a monouchi resharpen for $40 edge retention isn't a big point. Give me a solid pro and con of any higher hanwei or bugei on a value or performance stand point. Because if your only defense is the perception of the sword being worth more ( a bamboo mat or bugei being more justified for the $300 upgrade) its kinda odd since they are all made in the same place with marginally different quality levels.
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Post by wazikan on Jul 3, 2016 16:53:06 GMT
So i own both high end hanwei and bugei. I am a big fan of better steel. Two of the bugei's ive had the tsukas replaced. I am a huge fan of getting at least the same and ito replaced. It completely changes the feel of the tool. I have the hanwei tiger(not the XL). I really like this sword. She cuts very well and has a sexy sound. I havent made any mods to this one. One of the reasons why i like to purchase the mid high end blades is the quality control.
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Post by Richard Arias on Jul 3, 2016 18:20:07 GMT
So i own both high end hanwei and bugei. I am a big fan of better steel. Two of the bugei's ive had the tsukas replaced. I am a huge fan of getting at least the same and ito replaced. It completely changes the feel of the tool. I have the hanwei tiger(not the XL). I really like this sword. She cuts very well and has a sexy sound. I havent made any mods to this one. One of the reasons why i like to purchase the mid high end blades is the quality control. That's my point. "Better steel" we don't know for sure as we can't see their invoices what steel any Chinese forge uses. Nobody has had their hanwei chemically tested to prove steel content. There are a boat load of eBay forges that flat out lie about their blades. Can we say for sure hanwei isn't doing a bit of the same. Steel is steel heat treat matters most and habwei is spotty at best seing many hanwei chip cutting bottle necks. I believe MAS started advertising L6 just to ride Howard Clark's reputation. They could be using their S7 and no one would know because the blades still look and perform identical in their forge. Like I said it seems like more of a perception of quality hoping spending more will get you better, but with hanwei I don't see it as much. I would rather spend $800 on a semi custom practical elite or a raptor and be able to focus on things I can prove ( the increased sharpness, better tsuka, higher quality imported material) rather than the here say of hanwei advertising. People kept hyping James Raw but my blades he made were junk and I had to send them back. I had a Kris cutlery 5160 repolished years ago by Chris Osborne. $600 total and all people said was "you should have bought a better sword". But that Kris cutlery was SWEET hand polished. Another $600 would have gone a long way to upgrade the mount. But I bet their are still some that would try to tell me they would rather spend the money on a bugei . Which again is a hard sell for me on quality vs price point and performance. i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff314/bluestarwizard/RickyKC-1.jpgi240.photobucket.com/albums/ff314/bluestarwizard/RickyKC-2.jpgi240.photobucket.com/albums/ff314/bluestarwizard/RickyKC-3.jpg (If someone has this blade I would be interested in talking deals.)
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Post by Kiyoshi on Jul 3, 2016 18:40:27 GMT
Because I haven't spent enough on a tsuka to double the price I don't have the right to say that I wouldn't? I wouldn't because while the sword has good steel (which we know is better than Huawei due to testing, even if the steel is the same, the temper is definitely better), the geometry isn't great for my tastes. I think a sword not having the best shape is a good reason not to double the price. I don't know if you are aware but you came off as very condescending.
You also are completely off on my views. I am a very practical person. I doubt I could sell you on anything since we value different things. I'm not going to argue with you, I'm only trying to help the OP.
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Post by johnwalter on Jul 3, 2016 18:53:46 GMT
Other brands that may tickle your fancy,Kaneie,MAS,maybe Dynasty Forge. Cool. Thanks for the tips, John. I am watching your review of the Kaneie Mountain Spider and have been thinking about that or the Black Tiger if I can land either. It's a shame a lot of these swords aren't available anymore. You are welcome.
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Post by Richard Arias on Jul 3, 2016 19:16:20 GMT
Because I haven't spent enough on a tsuka to double the price I don't have the right to say that I wouldn't? I wouldn't because while the sword has good steel (which we know is better than Huawei due to testing, even if the steel is the same, the temper is definitely better), the geometry isn't great for my tastes. I think a sword not having the best shape is a good reason not to double the price. I don't know if you are aware but you came off as very condescending. You also are completely off on my views. I am a very practical person. I doubt I could sell you on anything since we value different things. I'm not going to argue with you, I'm only trying to help the OP. I built a custom shobu raptor maybe 7 years or so ago in the same way I mentioned upgrading the sharpness via nihonzashi (and the geometry because their sharpening gave an even high grit symmetrical blade) and skip Gardner doing the upgrade tsuka. Traded it to a sensei and had one of his friends say I took advantage. When I asked why he said "spring steel blades are crap they chip and break" when I asked how he came to know that he said "I just do".... Now their are enough people here that know raptors to say that statement is false, but he sticks to it. Not condescending... You have a view but not one backed by experience and data. I think huawei is over rated I would rather go the Hanwei upgrade route. But where is the cutting video, review and photos that prove that hanwei is better? I just made a trade for a hanwei that I hope will impress me, but I have yet to own the hanwei gems that emerge from their general mass junk. People keep telling the OP the same info you are that isn't a lie, but not exactly true. If he could buy one of James Williams personal Bugei I would say go for it. Or one of the Shinkendo kotetsu. But he could build a semi custom that has quality in its work and be able to perform well with it. Daniel Watson once told me "a Honda can't beat a Ferrari" I showed him a video of my friend besting one on a drag strip with his acura. The KC blade is a fine example. You could do the same with a hanwei practical or the like. And for the same price as a bugei the OP could have a sweet sword. But someone would tell him he should have just bought a bugei peace blade or the like... I have been crazy enough to do some oddball things with swords. But it also helps me be able to root my views in experience and not here say. Is it a lot more leg work to go the route I am suggesting? HECK YEAH... But I think that would better serve the OP than buying a off the shelf (even a higher shelf) production blade hoping he gets a good one.
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Post by Kiyoshi on Jul 3, 2016 19:52:04 GMT
I'm not going to reply to you again. If you wish to have a civil discussion, pm me and we can, but attacking credibility with straw man substitutions is neither polite nor productive to the topic at hand.
He could do a custom, sure. Instead of nihonzashi, I recommend Salvatori Moretto. He makes good stuff at great prices. I feel that his quality is high because of his excellent tsuka shaping, even diamonds, and good professionalism.
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Post by Richard Arias on Jul 3, 2016 22:28:08 GMT
Sal is a nice guy and I like him. Having said that I had to have a semi custom of his reworked by nihonzashi. His wrap was literally coming untied at the end knot. It was a waste because the suede ito could not be reused. The tsuka core was decent that he did and the same' wrap was competent. But he did not replace the mekugi (hanwei factory ones are soft lacking strength and friction fit). The Tsuba was not properly fitted, and neither was the saya (Sal bought a $70 eBay saya and used it without properly fitting the koiguchi). But his knot and tie work needs a good amount of work. If the wrap is just going to fall apart there is no point. Looking at his wraps he just needs to work on the end knot and tie. I stick by nihonzashi because they are swordsmen with years of experience reworking blades for dojo's and competition use. They know what a good solid use blade should be. It sucked having to spend $200 to fix a blade sal worked on but it was just not up to standard. And now the orchid is in the hands of a Student as his first sword. I enjoy funding a small shop that supports good people who run a dojo. I'm not attacking you and I am sorry you feel that way. I spent to many years in speech and debate so I find myself saying "where's the beef?" With a lot of assumptions being made in the sword, car and gun markets ex. This thread is identical to threads I have watched for 10+ years and it just gets old and caught in a loop. Attachments:
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Post by Kiyoshi on Jul 3, 2016 22:48:53 GMT
That came off as very polite and I thank you for that. My main thing is that I don't think you quite understand my position. It isn't that nihonzashi is bad or that the OP shouldn't do as you suggested, it is that I think that a practical plus ($329 on KoA, $420+ on nohonzashi) May not be the best sword to spend $300 on a new tsuka when there are blades that are nicer. I'm not a fan of huawei or any eBay reseller when it comes to steel quality since we have reason to believe they are deceptive and we know that the majority, if not all, swords bought by members were softer than they should have been. Hanwei has been shown to be really good when it comes to steel quality from different members and my own experience. With a bamboo mat is only $500, it would be a better investment to get that, and if he feels like it, getting it reworked, for only $80 more than the nihonzashi practical plus. The geometry, to me, is worth the extra $80. I do put value on certain things that don't make THAT much of a difference (yokote for instance), but if I wanted nothing but pure use, I would get a cheap raptor and not bother with the tsuka. Even loose ito can still work. I value certain things because of their craftsmanship but as for overal, I'm a very practical, black on black, no frill iron fittings kind of guy.
As for Sal, that is the first complaint I have heard of his stuff. I've seen others enjoy what he put out. Did you see if he'd fix it? I like nohonzashi's offerings for the fittings but I'm not a fan of their tsuka as much as I am some others like Cottontail Customs.
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Post by wyndonp on Jul 4, 2016 1:11:26 GMT
I appreciate all the passion I am seeing and the practical advice. As I said, I do some more research, I get more flummoxed. I thought I was in a good range from $600-1200 for a sword that would be great out of the box, but every brand seems to have its proponents and its detractors and I am trying to wade through the information. I'm not beholden to just one brand, so I'm keeping an open mind. There certainly is no end of opinions about katana, and I think that's the fun part- each sword can be as individual as its owner. I am in no huge rush to purchase, which is probably saving me from doing something dumb and rash. I'd rather do some more reading and asking questions first. And I'm certainly not just limiting myself to the three brands I mentioned initially. I just have some experience with one brand the others keep coming up in conversation across the web. Though I'm certainly looking for the best quality I can, value for dollar is important. I'd still like it to look good, as well as perform out of the box, but if I can get the best blade for the money and then send it to a custom house to really make it remarkable, I'd consider that too, as I have an idea of a theme I'd like to see, and that would allow me to have a say in the parts going onto my blade. I've actually been looking closely at the Feilong swords Cottontail is offering as well. Again, thanks for all the food for thought.
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Post by Aurélien on Jul 4, 2016 1:13:46 GMT
Between a high-end Bugei and my custom Raptor... I'll stick with my Raptor. A master-piece I ordered to our fellow member Josh (aka Frank the Bunny, owner of Cottontail Custom) one year ago. Uber-efficient blade, talentuous customization, unique sword. Much more attractive and better built than my Bugei Samurai or my Hanwei Lion Dog... Attachments:
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Post by Aurélien on Jul 4, 2016 1:15:22 GMT
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Post by Aurélien on Jul 4, 2016 1:35:10 GMT
But if you're not interested in a custom blade (I could perfectly understand), a Bugei Old Pine or a Tori Elite should make you happy and proud (About the Tori Elite : I own this sword. She's gorgeous. And she will 200% reward you... if you're in good form and/or a seasoned cutter. Without shibori and some skills, bamboo cutting is prohibited.)
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