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Post by - on Feb 27, 2016 14:13:46 GMT
Just a random thought I had. Cones seem like they could be pretty sharp, so could a (thrusting only, obviously) dagger or sword have a cone-shaped blade? Would it be usable at all?
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Post by demonskull on Feb 27, 2016 14:48:55 GMT
Not sure what you mean by cone shaped. If you mean a 3d cone then it probably wouldn't be a good thrusting weapon. The varying diameter of the cone would drastically increase drag, so it wouldn't penetrate deeply. Not a good chose for a thrusting weapon.
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Post by - on Feb 27, 2016 14:55:51 GMT
Yes, I was imagining a 3D cone. Thanks for the input. I was thinking the same thing about drag, but I wasn't sure.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Feb 27, 2016 15:08:01 GMT
The taper of the cone would have something to do with the results. Never the less I suspect additional weight, more energy involved for penetration, and on live targets the blade would push aside tendons and vessel rather than cut them. All of this assumes that I correctly understand your definition of a cone blade.
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Post by disappearingone on Feb 27, 2016 18:03:45 GMT
It's a bit of a stretch to call it a cone-shape, but the closest thing I can think of to what you're describing would be sai. They don't really have blades, but they do come to a point. They're really more of a bludgeoning weapon, though I suppose you could thrust with them if you had to.
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Post by - on Feb 27, 2016 19:10:27 GMT
It's a bit of a stretch to call it a cone-shape, but the closest thing I can think of to what you're describing would be sai. I never knew those existed. They look pretty neat (and somewhat similar to what I was imagining).
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Feb 27, 2016 20:39:02 GMT
Sai made me think of rod and spike bayonets. Aside from musket spike bayonets that were to some degree replaced by sword style, rod bayonets were briefly experimented with in the US Army just before the turn of the 19th century and into the Spanish American War. They prove less than satisfactory and Roosevelt had them replaced on the M1903 rifles in 1905 with the M1905 knife type bayonet. The Brits used a spike bayonet in WWII as a war time expediency and found them wanting. That made me think of a cruciform bayonet use on some SKS and AK-47 rifles but knife bayonets that really didn’t have a good cutting edge but made a wider wound channel appear to be more popular. In all cases knife type bayonets were favoured.
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Post by Adventurer'sBlade on Mar 1, 2016 6:40:51 GMT
The sword would penetrate better with a triangular or cross shaped geometry, especially with the edges sharpened. A cone blade would stretch tissue to enter instead of slicing or tearing in, so the permanent wound cavity might not be as grave. Just a guess. My Mosin Nagant has a cross/4 edged bayonet, but the sides aren't sharpened.
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Post by - on Mar 1, 2016 11:28:56 GMT
A couple of my friends are pretty good with a lathe, so maybe someday I'll have them help me with making something with this kind of blade. Then maybe I could actually test how well (or bad) it would work.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Mar 1, 2016 21:53:06 GMT
To have the entire blade conical adds lots of width, and lots of weight, if you want length. Conical tip works, and is used on some bayonets as noted above, though quite a few rod bayonets have 3-sided pyramidal tips rather than conical. Also on some stilettos, hidden spikes in canes, umbrellas, etc.
Also as noted above, lack of cutting can mean worse penetration - a blade will cut through fibres in cloth, while a cone will only push them aside. So some trench spikes made from round rod have the tip flattened and sharpened into a little bladed spear-point.
If you don't start with round stock, it's hard to a conical-tipped round "blade" than square-section, so hand-forged spikes of these types are often square/rectangular section. Or diamond. In those cases, you may as well make the tip pyramidal with sharpened edges as well as a sharp point.
The cruciform bayonets are cruciform for more stiffness for a given weight, compared to a round rod. Tips are usually a little like a flat screwdriver rather than conical.
A slender cone penetrates better, as long as the tip doesn't bend over. Against metal sheet, triangular pyramid is best, then 4-sided pyramid, then 5, and a cone is worse. Worse, but still OK.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Mar 2, 2016 3:40:15 GMT
I have a pre 2007 CS sword cane with a cruciform blade. That blade requires more energy for penetration than my other blades, everything else being equal. I can think of cases where it did not penetrate as well such as with multiple layers of rugs. It makes the largest hole compared to the others reminding me of a .38 cal. But this is on inanimate targets such as cardboard that is non-stretchable. I strongly suspect on live tissue it would only push much of the tissue aside allowing it to spring back to near its original shape. Years ago tests were done comparing bullets and it was shown that round nose bullets showed this characteristic, that is pushing tendons etc. aside without severing, and made a much poorer showing than wade cutters or semi-wad cutters. Hollow points were the most effective. That reminds me of something I had not thought of in years. I was traveling and passed through a town in northern NJ and I noticed that the police, they carried .38 revolvers in those days, had two wade cutters in the first two loops of their cartridge belt, the rest were round nose. Being curious I asked the reason. They replied for dispatching dogs as they were more effective than the round nose cartridges they were required to use on humans.
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Post by Adventurer'sBlade on Mar 2, 2016 6:32:53 GMT
I was traveling and passed through a town in northern NJ and I noticed that the police, they carried .38 revolvers in those days, had two wade cutters in the first two loops of their cartridge belt, the rest were round nose. Being curious I asked the reason. They replied for dispatching dogs as they were more effective than the round nose cartridges they were required to use on humans. Fortunately the brass have moved with the times and I'm not aware of any departments these days that still use ball/round nose ammo. Maybe the military will even be able to choose HP ammo some day.
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Post by randomnobody on Mar 2, 2016 6:54:42 GMT
I'm reminded of some Indo-Persian daggers with conical tips, but I'm not in a place right now to pull up any examples. The reasoning assigned to most of these was that the cone made for a more robust, armor-piercing (probably in reference to chain rather than plate) tip, whereas the normal edge behind it did the cutting. An interesting theory I would like to see properly tested, but the examples I can think of currently are antiques or questionable Indian "Damascus" type stuff that one can never be certain is actually even heat treated, never mind quality steel heat treated correctly...
One of the Forged in SBG knives, from the thruster round (round three) is a corkscrew blade with a conical tip. I've been looking forward to seeing what this one can do, and hope to try it out this weekend.
As for a "blade" that is entirely a cone, my first thought was the archetypal Lance, as portrayed in various popular media. You know the ones, that all the cartoon(y) knights hoist up for the joust, often with dramatic concave taper and a big flare at the handle... I wonder where that design came from?
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Mar 2, 2016 7:33:43 GMT
I'm reminded of some Indo-Persian daggers with conical tips, but I'm not in a place right now to pull up any examples. The reasoning assigned to most of these was that the cone made for a more robust, armor-piercing (probably in reference to chain rather than plate) tip, whereas the normal edge behind it did the cutting. An interesting theory I would like to see properly tested, but the examples I can think of currently are antiques or questionable Indian "Damascus" type stuff that one can never be certain is actually even heat treated, never mind quality steel heat treated correctly... Here's one example: www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=1686I don't recall seeing one that was actually conical. Usually they're diamond-section. THe edges are often a bit rounded, like on this example, possibly from polishing over time.
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Post by randomnobody on Mar 2, 2016 9:47:36 GMT
Yeah, like that. I see what you mean on the diamond profile on that one, but must I'd what I've seen were quite decidedly round. You may be right on polishing, though.
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