Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2016 20:16:03 GMT
Somewhere in the 1850's many European nations copied the Austrian M1850 sword's design: Switzerland, Spain and the German states of Hesse, Bade and Wurttemberg. A rather scarce model, the Wurttemberg 1859 Cavalry sword was, despite its name, issued to all mounted troops (uhlans, hussars, dragoons, horse artillery, mounted supply troops). Made less than a decade after the Austrian M50, you can clearly see it's influence: symmetrical bowl shaped but curved hilt with eight circular hole perforations and two longitudinal slots for the sword knot. On the outer side of the guard you can see the deleted regimental markings (20th uhlan regiment among them) and the last assignment "127.R.E. 1.2" ( Württemb. Infantry Regiment no.127, ersatz (replacement) battalion, 1st Company, weapon no. 2), part of army Corps XIII in WW1. First generation models had a simpler blade but after 1882 the blades were replaced with pipeback ones and reinforced with the metal ''habaki'' (again, Austrian influence). This one has the upgraded blade with the"Weyersberg Kirschbaum & CO Solingen." (1883 - present) under number "88" (year of service: 1888), the other side marked with the acceptance mark "M under crown" and number "87" (year of first service: 1887). Heavy and powerfully built sword but the curvature of the guard plate can be uncomfortable to the knuckles/wrist. . Total length ......................... 1030 mm / 40.5'' Saber length ......................... 1000 mm / 39.5'' Blade length ......................... 88 mm / 34.5'' Blade ricasso width (max.) ...... 30 mm / 1 1/2'' Back blade width: .................. 8.5 mm at base to 6 mm at half and 2mm at point POB ..................................... 155 mm / 6'' The officer version follows the Austrian tradition: its handle is of fishskin grip, it is much lighter and faster and the basket hilt is richly decorated with the usual floral pattern but has the state of Wurttemberg's coat of arms on it the same way the Swiss models do. Pipeback blade made by Kirschbaum (single knight helmet) so made somewhere before 1883. Superb handling as usual with officer swords but it still stands out to other officer models. Total length ......................... 1050 mm / 41'' Saber length ........................ 960 mm / 37.5'' Blade length ......................... 840 mm / 33'' Blade ricasso width (max.) ...... 25 mm / 1'' Back blade width: .................. 8 mm at base to 5 mm at half and 1mm at point POB ..................................... 130 mm / 5''
|
|
|
Post by Dave Kelly on Feb 18, 2016 22:48:50 GMT
Interesting historic transition here. The Brits invented the pipe back and pretty much abandoned it by 1850. Haven't tried to run down the players, but this is a fairly early adoption of the pipeback by a German State. The 6 in PoB is acceptable but influenced by a lack of taper to the pipe as it goes forward on the blade.
Thanks for sharing.
I hate you.
( ;) )
|
|
Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
|
Post by Uhlan on Feb 19, 2016 0:02:54 GMT
Pino, these are some prize finds. Wonderful to see the Officers and Enlisted together for once.
And I hate both of you.
Cheers.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2016 3:02:55 GMT
“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.”
The 1859 officer is easier to find of the lot; get it if you can, it is a very fine piece of German engineering!
|
|
|
Post by Afoo on Feb 19, 2016 3:40:52 GMT
Fear, hatred, anger...all of this is secondary to swords!
And nice info. Gorgeous pipe backs all round
|
|
|
Post by bfoo2 on Feb 20, 2016 6:10:09 GMT
It's odd, from the side-by-side picture, the officer's sword doesn't seem any less substantial than the troopers at first glance. You really have to look closely to see that the blade is indeed thinner and smaller. I suspect this may be common to most pipeback designs, as our 1898 Argentinian trooper/officer pair plays a similar trick to the eye
(or it could be that my eyes are blinded by tears of jealousy)
Also, how do these compare to the better-known Austrian 1904 pipebacks?
|
|
|
Post by Dave Kelly on Feb 20, 2016 12:20:42 GMT
Wish I had a book on German state swords that was worth a rats butt. I'm beginning to think that we have an issue here where this is a 59 hilt design with retrofit pipe backs. Jah?
The enlisted blade say WKC (not founded until 1882) and the acceptance mark on the blade is 1887.) Can't see data on the the Officer except a Kirschbaum knights head which only means pre '82.
Same renovation occured with the Prussian 1852s. They went pipeback in '79.
'nother words, these hilts once had gorgeous standard blades.
|
|
Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
|
Post by Uhlan on Feb 20, 2016 13:39:33 GMT
I find this all very interesting, but I just remembered why I vowed to leave the Austrians and Wurttembergers alone. They me give a splitting headache. Holes here, holes there, blades such and blades so and then they have the nerve to serve coffee with whipped cream WITHOUT sugar. These are NOT serious people. They wear funny hats and idiot short leather pants, in which they hop around, sporting great big beards. BLECH! So, before I go to bed, nursing a beginning migraine, what is this? They want to charge me a very uncool Euro 950 for it and I have given up on sorting it out. Wurttemberg or Austrian? They say Wurttemberg 1850. 8 holes, old style blade, no reinforcements. Weyersberg-Solingen. Notice the different scabbard without the huge screws. Basket marked M 74. Euro 950 okay?
|
|
|
Post by Dave Kelly on Feb 20, 2016 14:50:10 GMT
Neither. It's the Baden 1859 Dragoon. Austrians didn't have that pronounced thumb rest. This is the Swiss 67s daddy.
950.00 seems a tad high. Supply and demand issue for a small German state. I'd buy it, of course. Check deutsche-blankwaffen.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2016 15:34:50 GMT
Wish I had a book on German state swords that was worth a rats butt. I'm beginning to think that we have an issue here where this is a 59 hilt design with retrofit pipe backs. Jah? The enlisted blade say WKC (not founded until 1882) and the acceptance mark on the blade is 1887.) Can't see data on the the Officer except a Kirschbaum knights head which only means pre '82. Same renovation occured with the Prussian 1852s. They went pipeback in '79. 'nother words, these hilts once had gorgeous standard blades. Yes they had: as I said in the description ''First generation models had a simpler blade but after 1882 the blades were replaced with pipeback ones and reinforced with the metal ''habaki'' (again, Austrian influence). This one has the upgraded blade''. They also had 2 ring scabbards but in the decades prior to WW1 they had the lower one removed. Given the sword's numerous regimental services no wonder it had been altered with regulations over the years. You'll need Gerd Maier's books on edged weapons if you want to decode the mysteries of German swords.
|
|
Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
|
Post by Uhlan on Feb 20, 2016 16:31:28 GMT
Thanks Dave. Looked up Deutsche Blankwaffen and yes,it is a Baden Cav. Enl. Here are the two Wurttemberg sabres with the old blades and without habaki: Officers. Enlisted. Pictures courtesy of Blankwaffen.de Cheers.
|
|
|
Post by Dave Kelly on Feb 20, 2016 16:55:04 GMT
Yeah, sorry, you did say these were re-blades. Somewhere in hunting up data I lost track of the thread. Dumb ole guy, me.
Thanks for the author. See what I can fish up for books.
( Found parts of his series for Prussia, Bavaria, Baden and Wurtemburg. 600.00 shipped from Amazon.de. Saweet Jeremiah T Bullfrog!)
|
|
|
Post by Dave Kelly on Feb 20, 2016 16:57:06 GMT
No offence to our company, but screw the pipe backs. I want THOSE!
|
|
Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
|
Post by Uhlan on Feb 20, 2016 20:18:04 GMT
Think I may have found the reason why the Austrian M1850 cracked. The Austrian hilts were cast, as in, made of cast iron, which tends to be brittle. Cast iron came just into its own by then. Think Eiffel Tower. But the technique was still in its infancy. The Wurttemberger hilts were made from rolled and formed steel. That they still used the habaki is strange. The Badeners knew better it seems. Info courtesy of Blankwaffen.de
|
|
|
Post by oddj on Apr 23, 2021 14:32:22 GMT
|
|
|
Post by treeslicer on Apr 23, 2021 16:19:17 GMT
I was looking for info on this I just got in the mail, was no lack of contradicting opinions, but one said it was a Baden m59. sadly no scabbard, but at €140 it was too low to say no. As variations on the Austrian 1850 seem to be showing up a lot lately, I'm including an English translation of the post in that thread that tells how to differentiate them (at least for the original regulation/issue models, the personal purchase sabers can deviate slightly). Quill/pipeback blades may also appear on some of these due to retrofits of them done in the 1880's.
" The Austrian model 1850 was copied by Switzerland, Baden and Württemberg. However, the distinction is actually very simple. There are very clear deviations. (I'm not going into all the details now, because I think that would go beyond the scope) In the Swiss model, the handle basket is rounded at the front and does not have this bent end bead. In addition, only six holes in the basket. therefore you can exclude Switzerland from your presented saber. It is similar with the Baden and Württemberg models. The Austrian saber 1850: - 7 holes in the handle basket - Blade provided with a hollow fuller only on one side - no thread with screw to attach a finger loop - The double slots to accommodate the sword knot have rounded ends Baden and Württemberg: - Blade with fuller on both sides - Thread with screw for fastening the finger loop - The double slots have rectangular ends - 8 holes in the basket In the Baden model, the double slots are very close to the handle cap, which also has a cross-guard-like reinforcement in the basket through which the screw for the finger loop passes. Your saber is clearly the Baden Cavalry Saber M1855 (introduced in 1859)."
Congratulations on getting a very nice bargain.
|
|
|
Post by oddj on Apr 23, 2021 16:25:35 GMT
Your saber is clearly the Baden Cavalry Saber M1855 (introduced in 1859)."
Congratulations on getting a very nice bargain.
Thank you. So is the right term the 55 or 59? or is they both used interchangeably?
|
|
|
Post by treeslicer on Apr 23, 2021 16:27:55 GMT
Your saber is clearly the Baden Cavalry Saber M1855 (introduced in 1859)."
Congratulations on getting a very nice bargain.
Thank you. So is the right term the 55 or 59? or is they both used interchangeably?
M1855 for Baden. M1859 is the Wurttemburg type designation for their similar saber..
|
|