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Post by kalkikrosah on Oct 18, 2017 3:46:29 GMT
That's a nice size/weight point, and common on Philippine swords. For example, this kris is 644g/23oz. This is on the light side for a Moro kris of this size, but not unusual (my heavy old kris are 22"/800g/28oz and 22.5"/850g/30oz). I wonder if TFW is phasing in shorter blades on their Moro Kris line, as I see a bunch of 20" blades rather than 23 1/2" on their sword descriptions? That could be the case. The Kris shown in the photo is a straight Kris though, which is more historically accurate for actual war usage. The wavy stuff that TFW puts out tend to have waves in them. I do not know for sure but the waves may have something to do with adding on weight and as a way to keep the weight in line with historical models TFW opted to shave off a few inches from the overall length in order to keep the weight down. Purely speculation on my part but that could be why there is a discrepancy on the sword lengths.
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Post by howler on Oct 18, 2017 9:13:15 GMT
I wonder if TFW is phasing in shorter blades on their Moro Kris line, as I see a bunch of 20" blades rather than 23 1/2" on their sword descriptions? That could be the case. The Kris shown in the photo is a straight Kris though, which is more historically accurate for actual war usage. The wavy stuff that TFW puts out tend to have waves in them. I do not know for sure but the waves may have something to do with adding on weight and as a way to keep the weight in line with historical models TFW opted to shave off a few inches from the overall length in order to keep the weight down. Purely speculation on my part but that could be why there is a discrepancy on the sword lengths. Maybe I'll give the owner a jingle, as he seems like a nice guy in the videos.
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Post by howler on Oct 21, 2017 1:12:48 GMT
What are your recommendations for a starter sword? Of brand-name production swords, the TFW Visayan barong. Can't go wrong with a barong. Beautiful cutting blades. At your budget, you can consider antiques. This was my first barong: Blade is 5.35mm at the hilt, 3.6mm mid-blade. 552g, 702g with scabbard. 1960s or 1970s is my guess. Cuts very well. Hey, Timo, what do you think of the TFW Visayan binagon? Very close dimensionally to the TFW Visayan barong, though the POB is near an inch more on the binagon (and the blade being a tad longer) while the barong is 1/4lb heavier. I can't seem to find much on the internet regarding this blade. With a robust, 6mm thick near 20" blade, and at under 23oz, I am intrigued.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Oct 22, 2017 0:42:27 GMT
It doesn't excite me. I have an antique/vintage one, 16" blade, just under 20oz, tip is a little thinner than the TFW. It's OK, but it doesn't inspire me to get more. Should be a good work knife for lazy chopping. Would be a bit sluggish as a weapon, very poor thrusting, and it doesn't strike me as a good slicer - just a chopper. (A barong, OTOH, will slice beautifully, thrust well, and chop.) The TFW might slice somewhat better, but it depends on the geometry of the blade near the tip. The TFW has a double-sided ground, but all of the originals I've seen are one-sided (chisel-ground). The TFW blade is what you might see on a Moro bankung (complete with partial back edge): www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11431The TFW is probably OK, but I'd expect sluggish for the weight. It wouldn't be in my list of top 6 TFW swords to buy, if I was in the market for them (their pricing is unattractive compared to antiques).
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Post by howler on Oct 22, 2017 8:18:55 GMT
It doesn't excite me. I have an antique/vintage one, 16" blade, just under 20oz, tip is a little thinner than the TFW. It's OK, but it doesn't inspire me to get more. Should be a good work knife for lazy chopping. Would be a bit sluggish as a weapon, very poor thrusting, and it doesn't strike me as a good slicer - just a chopper. (A barong, OTOH, will slice beautifully, thrust well, and chop.) The TFW might slice somewhat better, but it depends on the geometry of the blade near the tip. The TFW has a double-sided ground, but all of the originals I've seen are one-sided (chisel-ground). The TFW blade is what you might see on a Moro bankung (complete with partial back edge): www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11431The TFW is probably OK, but I'd expect sluggish for the weight. It wouldn't be in my list of top 6 TFW swords to buy, if I was in the market for them (their pricing is unattractive compared to antiques). So more of a chopper that would/could be pressed into defensive duty as a secondary role. I'd still like to see it put through its paces on video, with swinging, chopping, thrusting tests on various medium. It must possess some significant cleaving ability for its weight (under 23oz), so this is probably the reason for its existence (unskilled fighters using utility weapons that offer more "one chop, one kill" ability). What would be your top 6 from TFW, as I have been rather taken by their offerings recently? Any heavy blade with a one sided chisel grind would be a true cutting demon with such an acute angle, and easy to sharpen, but more chip prone if the angle is too severe.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Oct 22, 2017 8:58:04 GMT
My binagong has the main part of the bevel at a 15 degree angle. It's slightly convex, and the very edge is thus at a steeper angle (maybe 20 degrees?). Yes, an acute edge.
My top 6 TFW would be: - Visayan barong (the Moro barong is nice, too) - Sansibar 3 and 4 (1 is also nice) - Bicuco - Dahon palay - Golok
After those, maybe - Northern sansibar 2 - Pinute - War golok - Ginunting - Itak Tagalog 1
Some of their swords have grooved/checked backs of the grip. I don't like that. A grippy front of the grip would be less bad. Typically, my little finger will be against the hook of the pommel, so I don't need a grippy grooved/checked front. With or without a grooved/check front of the grip, my hand will stay in about the same position on the front of the grip. So I want to be able to shift the position of my hand along the back of the grip, and grooves/checks make this less comfortable. If the back of the grip of their pira was smooth, it would make the 2nd list above. (I have their Itak Tagalog 2, and the grooved grip is anti-ergonomic.)
Missing from the lists above are their krisses (ugly compared to antiques; out them I'd prefer the straight), kampilan (old ones I've played with have thin wedge-section tips), panabas (sharpened on the wrong side)
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Post by howler on Oct 23, 2017 2:43:58 GMT
My binagong has the main part of the bevel at a 15 degree angle. It's slightly convex, and the very edge is thus at a steeper angle (maybe 20 degrees?). Yes, an acute edge. My top 6 TFW would be: - Visayan barong (the Moro barong is nice, too) - Sansibar 3 and 4 (1 is also nice) - Bicuco - Dahon palay - Golok After those, maybe - Northern sansibar 2 - Pinute - War golok - Ginunting - Itak Tagalog 1 Some of their swords have grooved/checked backs of the grip. I don't like that. A grippy front of the grip would be less bad. Typically, my little finger will be against the hook of the pommel, so I don't need a grippy grooved/checked front. With or without a grooved/check front of the grip, my hand will stay in about the same position on the front of the grip. So I want to be able to shift the position of my hand along the back of the grip, and grooves/checks make this less comfortable. If the back of the grip of their pira was smooth, it would make the 2nd list above. (I have their Itak Tagalog 2, and the grooved grip is anti-ergonomic.) Missing from the lists above are their krisses (ugly compared to antiques; out them I'd prefer the straight), kampilan (old ones I've played with have thin wedge-section tips), panabas (sharpened on the wrong side) Those sansibar look like lightning fast slashers, though I'd probably want the thickest of the bunch for enhanced durability. I was checking out that Tagalog #2, as well as the Kris #5, Ginunting, and others. I wonder if the Binagon pierces as well as the ginunting, with their tip shapes being somewhat similar, though it appears the Binagon is a bit more in line for thrusting with blade and tip (just don't know about grind angles and thickness)? With so many unanswered questions regarding the Visayan Binagon, it appears the Visayon Barong (a known quantity) would be the best bet. What I'd really love to do is spend a day (hell, a week) goofing around with the blades in Ron's shop, handling, cutting different medium...fondling lovingly, caressing...gulp.
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Post by howler on Oct 23, 2017 20:09:00 GMT
My binagong has the main part of the bevel at a 15 degree angle. It's slightly convex, and the very edge is thus at a steeper angle (maybe 20 degrees?). Yes, an acute edge. My top 6 TFW would be: - Visayan barong (the Moro barong is nice, too) - Sansibar 3 and 4 (1 is also nice) - Bicuco - Dahon palay - Golok After those, maybe - Northern sansibar 2 - Pinute - War golok - Ginunting - Itak Tagalog 1 Some of their swords have grooved/checked backs of the grip. I don't like that. A grippy front of the grip would be less bad. Typically, my little finger will be against the hook of the pommel, so I don't need a grippy grooved/checked front. With or without a grooved/check front of the grip, my hand will stay in about the same position on the front of the grip. So I want to be able to shift the position of my hand along the back of the grip, and grooves/checks make this less comfortable. If the back of the grip of their pira was smooth, it would make the 2nd list above. (I have their Itak Tagalog 2, and the grooved grip is anti-ergonomic.) Missing from the lists above are their krisses (ugly compared to antiques; out them I'd prefer the straight), kampilan (old ones I've played with have thin wedge-section tips), panabas (sharpened on the wrong side) That Itak Tagalog 2 does have very compelling features (barong with back edge), so that is concerning about the grip (wonder if it's is an individual thing). I don't know what the weight is on those 20" Kris, and like you, I like the straighter designs (not wavy to the top). Still not sure about the Visayan Binagon (parang with back edge...though narrower thickness).
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Oct 23, 2017 21:01:50 GMT
That Itak Tagalog 2 does have very compelling features (barong with back edge), so that is concerning about the grip (wonder if it's is an individual thing). Sanding the grooves off (or filling them with epoxy) would work. The handle isn't at all close to being too thin, so sanding it would work well. If I absolutely loved it otherwise, I'd have done it. The back edge isn't sharpened; about 1mm thick at the thinnest. You could take the blade to a grinder and sharpen it - but it thickens at the point, so this would weaken the tip. Not close to being a barong. One reasons why barongs slice so beautifully is the wide wedge-section blade. The Itak Tagalog 2, OTOH, has a relatively narrow (compared to a barong) bevel (and a steep secondary bevel at the edge). Think of it as a pinute substitute rather than a barong substitute. Cuts OK, though. Not as nicely as a typical barong.
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Post by pellius on Oct 24, 2017 0:37:54 GMT
I have a TFW Itak Tagolog 1. The grip is very comfortable (and smooth).
It has a cutting edge similar to the Itak 2. I have used my Itak 1 a lot to cut tree limbs, clear brush, dig up roots, etc. I can tell you that the edge is very robust, and the TFW steel holds an edge very well. Very tough. The edge geometry is great for heavy chopping duty, but I agree with Timo that it is too steep/obtuse for cutting (in a sword sense).
Great tool. Okay weapon.
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Post by howler on Oct 24, 2017 2:20:30 GMT
That Itak Tagalog 2 does have very compelling features (barong with back edge), so that is concerning about the grip (wonder if it's is an individual thing). Sanding the grooves off (or filling them with epoxy) would work. The handle isn't at all close to being too thin, so sanding it would work well. If I absolutely loved it otherwise, I'd have done it. The back edge isn't sharpened; about 1mm thick at the thinnest. You could take the blade to a grinder and sharpen it - but it thickens at the point, so this would weaken the tip. Not close to being a barong. One reasons why barongs slice so beautifully is the wide wedge-section blade. The Itak Tagalog 2, OTOH, has a relatively narrow (compared to a barong) bevel (and a steep secondary bevel at the edge). Think of it as a pinute substitute rather than a barong substitute. Cuts OK, though. Not as nicely as a typical barong. This is good info regarding that Tag 2. I would have bet good money that back edge was sharpened.
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Post by Croccifixio on Oct 24, 2017 3:18:46 GMT
As weapons, it's really only the TFW Sansibar and Ginunting that make the cut for being almost as fast to move as the originals (with modern, alloyed steel of course so much tougher).
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Zen_Hydra
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Born with a heart full of neutrality
Posts: 2,625
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Oct 24, 2017 3:46:28 GMT
Any TFW Binakuko experience? There is something I really like about the form factor. I do wish they carried a model with a longer blade.
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Post by howler on Oct 24, 2017 7:44:04 GMT
As weapons, it's really only the TFW Sansibar and Ginunting that make the cut for being almost as fast to move as the originals (with modern, alloyed steel of course so much tougher). The Gununting has the robustness I seek, but how is the stabbing ability, as it visually looks like it would have even less than the Visayan Binagon?
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Oct 24, 2017 10:34:58 GMT
Any TFW Binakuko experience? There is something I really like about the form factor. I do wish they carried a model with a longer blade. One came with my Itak Tagalog 2: In terms of the handle/blade geometry, it's a lot like a kukri (except with a point less well placed for thrusting compared to a kukri). Light for a kukri of the size, but there are kukris of the same weight. The front and back of the handle have a chipped texture, and IMO smooth would be better. The chipped texture isn't as bad as the grooves on the back of the Itak Tagalog 2. It should cut well for its size and weight, since the main business part of the blade is thin and wide, and a slightly convex but fairly flat wedge geometry. (I haven't cut with it.) I haven't seen an antique like it. Weapons of that shape do turn up on some Weapons of Moroland plaques (but not always called a binakuko - I was one where it was a "pinsawali", and the "binakoko" looked unrelated). If this Indian kukri was a little bigger, it would be a reasonable binakuko lookalike! (It's lightweight - 230g.)
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Post by howler on Oct 24, 2017 20:12:42 GMT
Any TFW Binakuko experience? There is something I really like about the form factor. I do wish they carried a model with a longer blade. One came with my Itak Tagalog 2: In terms of the handle/blade geometry, it's a lot like a kukri (except with a point less well placed for thrusting compared to a kukri). Light for a kukri of the size, but there are kukris of the same weight. The front and back of the handle have a chipped texture, and IMO smooth would be better. The chipped texture isn't as bad as the grooves on the back of the Itak Tagalog 2. It should cut well for its size and weight, since the main business part of the blade is thin and wide, and a slightly convex but fairly flat wedge geometry. (I haven't cut with it.) I haven't seen an antique like it. Weapons of that shape do turn up on some Weapons of Moroland plaques (but not always called a binakuko - I was one where it was a "pinsawali", and the "binakoko" looked unrelated). If this Indian kukri was a little bigger, it would be a reasonable binakuko lookalike! (It's lightweight - 230g.) That Binakuko has quit a Dakota (like the angled edge on a tanto) that would really bite deep. That kukri has a crazy banana curve to it, btw. Kukri get pretty hefty when you increase blade length, though they do have narrower ones for combat purposes. There are Thai E-nep that are kukri like, but the tip is more in line for thrusting.
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Post by Croccifixio on Oct 25, 2017 5:48:21 GMT
As weapons, it's really only the TFW Sansibar and Ginunting that make the cut for being almost as fast to move as the originals (with modern, alloyed steel of course so much tougher). The Gununting has the robustness I seek, but how is the stabbing ability, as it visually looks like it would have even less than the Visayan Binagon? With the Ginunting design, every tip cut is essentially a light stab. This is one reason why I like and don't like the Ginunting, oddly enough. A tip cut with it is far more devastating than most other weapons because essentially, the curve combined with a normal "hew" or cut creates a piercing effect which goes easily through even tough leather. However, it makes the Ginunting a poorer cutter overall compared to a normal, sabre-curved sword like a Sansibar because the angle of the blade when you cut is a bit flatter than say a draw cut or a slicing cut with another blade. I'll try to explain that with a video tomorrow, I just have to scrounge up my videos of the Ginunting.
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Post by howler on Oct 25, 2017 7:37:29 GMT
The Gununting has the robustness I seek, but how is the stabbing ability, as it visually looks like it would have even less than the Visayan Binagon? With the Ginunting design, every tip cut is essentially a light stab. This is one reason why I like and don't like the Ginunting, oddly enough. A tip cut with it is far more devastating than most other weapons because essentially, the curve combined with a normal "hew" or cut creates a piercing effect which goes easily through even tough leather. However, it makes the Ginunting a poorer cutter overall compared to a normal, sabre-curved sword like a Sansibar because the angle of the blade when you cut is a bit flatter than say a draw cut or a slicing cut with another blade. I'll try to explain that with a video tomorrow, I just have to scrounge up my videos of the Ginunting. Yes, I was interested in the "tip cut effect" as well (shown on Skallagrim video), and could see why. A straight thrust, however, must be negatively effected, as even the Visayan Binagon would seem to pierce better. I would love to have the Kris #5 (or straight Kris...a few inches shorter...I wonder what the weight would be), Binagon, and Ginunting to play with. Sadly, there simply is no "one sword", particularly with all these pretty Filipino designs I've been looking at. The Binagon does look like a good SHTF apocalypse blade, where you get good utility with very good chopping power from something weighing under 23oz and having near a 20" blade. The Kris...pure weapon (and a lovely one at that). The Ginunting is another hybrid (utility/weapon) which must be ok because it's used by the military forces, and it's faster than the Binagon as the POB is 3" closer to the guard. But how sluggish can something REALLY be at 23oz...unless it's a tomahawk (all the weight...and POB...on one side), and even they are pretty fast at that weight. I think I know what you mean regarding the slicing effect. The Ginunting shape focuses chopping force with it's inward curved blade, but the blade can't slide (with less resistance), which gives you the slicing effect.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Oct 25, 2017 15:01:43 GMT
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Post by howler on Oct 25, 2017 21:13:17 GMT
Hey, where did you purchase your Pinuti from? I've been looking at the stuff from TFW.
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