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Post by jpcmt on Oct 11, 2017 1:34:43 GMT
Realizing this thread was just resurrected a week ago or so from its 2 year old slumber, and being a noob with this being my first post, I hope this is ok to comment on.
Being of Filipino descent and wanting to start my sword collection with a PH piece, I'm torn between the TFW Pinute which looks like it's listing for $239 and the Kris Pinuti III listing for $130 i think. I see that the TFW is a mix of 5160 and D2 while the Kris is 1060. I'm assuming the pricing is reflecting steel quality and durability for those willing to chop up a tree branch or three like I would. Question:
Is a 1060 "medium carbon" blade up to the task to do mild bushcrafting type work in the woods, say to chop up branches (up to 4" or so) and maybe some batoning work and maybe defend against a blackbear or grizzly (western MT)? In other words, is the Kris 1060 steel just for the occasional backward demonstration with some thin branches? Or can it work like I think the TFW Pinuto will?
Or should I invest in what I'm assuming is more up to the task and fits the bill of a work sword/machete like the TFW model?
With my wife being of Scandinavian descent, I'm also looking for the right Viking sword for her if there's something of a more modest length of around 20"?
Thanks folks. Great site btw.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Oct 11, 2017 3:00:04 GMT
I'm torn between the TFW Pinute which looks like it's listing for $239 and the Kris Pinuti III listing for $130 i think. I'd get the Kris. The Kris might actually be stronger - it's shorter and heavier, which suggests it's a thicker blade. 1060 vs whatever TFW use is still fine. Both are differentially hardened. With my wife being of Scandinavian descent, I'm also looking for the right Viking sword for her if there's something of a more modest length of around 20"? 20" is really tiny for a Viking sword; I don't know of any respectable one that short (a seax, on the other hand, can easily be that short). The shortest respectable production Viking sword I know of is the Hanwei Trondheim, 24": www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=SH2296It's a bit heavy for its size, and it's a bit of a funny sword. Non-traditional integrally-forged guard and pommel, solid steel grip (with leather cover). Scabbard is rather fantasy. But it's a cute little sword. Expensive though.
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Post by kalkikrosah on Oct 11, 2017 14:22:23 GMT
Realizing this thread was just resurrected a week ago or so from its 2 year old slumber, and being a noob with this being my first post, I hope this is ok to comment on. Hello, and welcome to SBG. I'm pretty new as well but from my short time being here I can say that its a nice place. And as far as I know they're pretty lax on necroing threads so long as they are still relevant. First off I will just post a hyperlink of the two Pinute bolos in question so that any future posters will have a visual of what you are looking at. I am using the Kult of Athena site for consistency/comparison purposes even though the Kris Pinuti III is no longer available on their site. If I listed the wrong link then by all means correct me accordingly: TFW Filipino Pinute - www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=TFW026&name=Filipino+Pinute+Kris Pinuti - www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=KRSPT The Kris Cutlery one I provided may or may not be an older model but I cannot seem to find a site that gives a good visual of it so this is what I was going by. 1060 is a high carbon steel and 5160 is a spring steel. 1060 is cheaper steel but it is the best quality cheap steel you can get. 1060 will be just as effective as 5160 in terms of sharpness and edge retention. The place where they differ is in durability. Spring Steel is more resilient and flexible than its 1060 counter part. Where a normal 1060 high carbon steel blade would bend or break a 5160 steel blade would flex and return back to shape. Of course 5160 can still break or bend with enough abuse but it has a higher threshold for playing rough than the standard high carbon steels. The D2 steel is considered a tool steel, which is just short of being labeled a stainless steel and is very hard. Harder steel has better edge retention so it stays sharper for longer, but sacrifices some durability to do so. What TFW is trying to do is give you the sharpness of D2 steel and the durability of 5160 steel. If you want to read a bit more into it there is a very basic thread on this site discussing the common sword steel types and their qualities. I will provide a link to that thread below if you want to read up on it. www.sword-buyers-guide.com/sword-steels.htmlBut getting back on topic, most of the specs are near identical or at least similar to one another. The only major difference I am seeing is in the width category. The TFW starts off at 5.3mm thick near the base of the blade and tapers off into a 2.1mm point (a distal taper). The Kris starts off at a 5.8mm and tapers off to a 3.4mm thickness near the point. Because of the presence of 5160 spring steel TFW can make more pronounced points. Kris, in order to match the durability of their 5160 spring steel competitor, has to make it thicker. In terms of chopping and slashing (which is what you will be doing with it 99% of the time) they should be on par with one another. The TFW would only outshine the Kris if you were to stab with it The Kris Cutlery should be able to perform the task just as good as the TFW but without cutting into your wallet as much. I would recommend the TFW because its actually made in the Philippines (gotta support your countrymen), uses better quality materials and is all-around constructed to a better quality. It also looks nicer but beauty is in the eye of the beholder so you be the judge there. But regardless of what you choose both Kris and TFW are known for their sharpness right out of the box so when it does arrive you can get to chopping down some brush right away. As Timo mentioned above there really aren't that many short Viking swords. Typically a standard Viking sword will be about 35" in length. While the length may not be to your exact preferences you can find some that are fairly cheap, roughly $250 for a basic style one. Hanwei makes one that looks fairly decent and comes with a scabbard too: www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=SH2408&name=Hanwei+Tinker+9th+Century+Viking+Sword+%2D+SharpBut if you insist on something shorter than a seax is more to your preference. Windlass makes a langseax that is 29" and looks alright: www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=501531&name=Runic+Long+SeaxAnd then Lord of battles makes a standard sized seax which falls just under your specifications at 19" : www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=SNDA5311&name=Large+Fighting+Seax
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pgandy
Moderator
Senior Forumite
Posts: 10,296
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Post by pgandy on Oct 11, 2017 17:50:44 GMT
Welcome. I have the Kris KRSPT www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=KRSPT . Bought it years back so I can talk about that one, the other I have no experience with. It has turned out to be a good one and amongst by favourites. I wrapped the grip with cord to strengthen and to give a more positive hold especially in the wet. It holds its edge well and is a super cutter. I’ve cut dead banana leaves and later cut cocoanut leaves. Both are tough, the cocoanut more so, after dying and drying out. The pinuti handled both jobs. I bought it as a tool but would have no qualms about combat. I have no complaints whatsoever with that Pinuti. Kris has replaced it and I cannot vouch for the replacement but have no reason to think that it would be less than the KRSPT. The sheath is another story and I would have to say potentially dangerous. It is of fairly thin leather w/o a belt loop but can be thrust inside the belt for carry. I suspect the life expectancy to be fairly short. I stopped using mine in short order. The danger comes from the stitching which is subject to being cut through with time. If you decide to use the factory sheath DO NOT GRASP THE SHEATH PUTTING YOUR FINGERS OVER THE STITCHING. But that can be said about many Asian, including kukri, sheaths even the wooden ones. I purchased a leather sheath made locally by one of our leather workers that came with a frog. It can be worn on the belt, inside the belt, on the back, and under the arm. Photo below.
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Post by howler on Oct 11, 2017 19:41:52 GMT
Though not Filipino, you can purchase as a beater the Aranyic Latin (standard 18", extended 20" blade) for $25 and $30 respectively (I think the site will be up next month after remodeling). Somewhat similar characteristics, with 3/16" thick 5160 steel and 28-32oz weight.
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Post by Croccifixio on Oct 12, 2017 2:49:08 GMT
While I've found other, more value sources for Filipino weapons here in the Philippines, I would say your best bet is TFW over there (or BCI). KC is rarely in stock and I feel their overall quality has dipped with most of their swords.
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Post by jpcmt on Oct 12, 2017 4:41:28 GMT
Fantastic! Thanks for the feedback. Tough choice, though ill probably end up just getting whats in stock between them thanks for the explamation on the steel types. I thought 1095 was the best steel with 106x and lower being not so good. Tfw has that nice wood sheath which seems like the real difference between both offerings given the crappy sheath on the kris. Bummer im not Italian, id prefer a good mainz gladius!
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Post by Croccifixio on Oct 12, 2017 5:04:13 GMT
Any steel above 0.40% carbon (basically anything 1045 and up) can be decent. Equally heat-treated, some are better than others, but for these kinds of weapons 1060 and 5160 are good to go.
You can probably get a second hand TFW or BCI for a good price in the Classifieds section. For what it's worth, you don't have much of a choice there anyway so maybe you can just get both (save up for the second one) to compare, and then sell off the one you like less. There are a lot of FMA practitioners in the US or Europe so you shouldn't have much trouble selling.
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Post by kalkikrosah on Oct 13, 2017 1:38:02 GMT
Fantastic! Thanks for the feedback. Tough choice, though ill probably end up just getting whats in stock between them thanks for the explamation on the steel types. I thought 1095 was the best steel with 106x and lower being not so good. Tfw has that nice wood sheath which seems like the real difference between both offerings given the crappy sheath on the kris. Bummer im not Italian, id prefer a good mainz gladius! The steel types do get confusing when just starting out. All swords need to be some form of high carbon steel and 1045, 1060, 1090 and 5160 are the most common types you will see. And the higher the number the better it is, is a common misconception. You want that happy compromise right in the middle where you get a balance of edge retention, durability, rigidity and flex. 1045 gives the most durability and flex where 1095 gives it the best sharpness and rigidity. There are other High Carbon steels out there that aren't all that common (like Del Tin's Chrome Vanadium Steel) but those are usually exclusive to that manufacturer. Just stay away from anything stainless steel. Stainless steel is a no-no for a usable sword. I was always impressed with TFW and I own one of their karambits. They do good work both on the functionality aspect of their blades and the aesthetics. And the fact that an actual wooden scabbard comes standard with nearly all of their blades is also a plus. It makes storing them a whole lot easier. Kris is also a good company too, especially in that price range. You can buy the Kris and use the money you saved on buying your wife her viking sword. And gladius swords are quite nice. I am not Italian and I have been looking at them for a long while. Albion makes the best ones, hands down, but you will have to drop around $1000 for one (scabbard not included) and wait about a year for them to forge the thing. You can get something more reasonable at a lower price range. Both Kris Cutlery and TFW make roman swords. TFW makes my favorite gladius and Kris Cutlery makes my favorite spatha. TFW Roman Gladius with Contrasting Hilt - kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=TFW022BKris Cutlery Spatha II - kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=KRSSPIIKris does make scabbards from time to time and this one actually looks rather nice. Very similar to a Jian type scabbard. Other makers of Roman swords that I think look nice include Legacy Arms, Del Tin and Devil's Edge. It's worth taking a look next time you are on the KoA website.
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Post by MOK on Oct 13, 2017 2:12:17 GMT
All I can add is that my TFW Moro Kris #5 is one of my absolute favorite cutters. Love the design, love the handling, love the materials and craftsmanship. And yes, indeed, really good steel and perfectly treated. The only thing I could quibble about is that the blade finish could be finer - but honestly, for a working weapon it's good enough, and possibly lower maintenance than a higher polish would be. I know I've never managed to actually put a noticeable scratch on it with all the (more or less sloppy) cutting of bottles, tatami, rope and fresh wood I've done...
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Oct 13, 2017 2:36:27 GMT
1045 gives the most durability and flex where 1095 gives it the best sharpness and rigidity. Out of the plain carbon steels 1045, 1060, 1095, and typical heat treatment, 1095 will give you the hardest edge (thus, best edge retention - it will stay sharpest for longest). 1060 is likely to be the strongest - assuming good heat treatment, it can be bent further than 1045 without taking a set, and is less brittle than 1095. 1045 is the cheapest (partly because it's easiest to grind). All will be equally rigid. The stiffness doesn't depend on the alloy, or the heat treatment. Just stay away from anything stainless steel. Stainless steel is a no-no for a usable sword. In principle, stainless steels are OK for swords. You just need the right alloy and sensible heat treatment. 440A with reasonable heat treatment can give you a result with the hardness of 1060 and the brittleness of 1095 (or toughness of 1095, if you prefer). So not as tough as 1060. So mechanically inferior to both 1060 (which would be the same hardness, but tougher) and 1095 (equally tough, but it would be harder), but given that 1060 is hard enough and 1095 is tough enough, it would be OK mechanically (and have excellent corrosion resistance). But most people making stainless swords are making junk wallhangers. Even if they were using 1060, they'd be making unsafe junk wallhangers. Avoiding stainless swords is a good rule-of-thumb (to which one might make exceptions).
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Post by howler on Oct 13, 2017 3:08:46 GMT
All I can add is that my TFW Moro Kris #5 is one of my absolute favorite cutters. Love the design, love the handling, love the materials and craftsmanship. And yes, indeed, really good steel and perfectly treated. The only thing I could quibble about is that the blade finish could be finer - but honestly, for a working weapon it's good enough, and possibly lower maintenance than a higher polish would be. I know I've never managed to actually put a noticeable scratch on it with all the (more or less sloppy) cutting of bottles, tatami, rope and fresh wood I've done... Lots of cool stuff at TFW. Did you choose the #5 because it was less wavy than some of the others, or because it weighed less? I was looking at those Kris and was wondering which I would order.
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Post by MOK on Oct 13, 2017 3:54:30 GMT
Lots of cool stuff at TFW. Did you choose the #5 because it was less wavy than some of the others, or because it weighed less? I was looking at those Kris and was wondering which I would order. Honestly, I just liked the overall look of it the most. I think the horse hoof pommel goes really well with the broad, relatively straight blade.
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Post by howler on Oct 13, 2017 19:30:04 GMT
Lots of cool stuff at TFW. Did you choose the #5 because it was less wavy than some of the others, or because it weighed less? I was looking at those Kris and was wondering which I would order. Honestly, I just liked the overall look of it the most. I think the horse hoof pommel goes really well with the broad, relatively straight blade. I agree. You have a few waves at the hilt that almost appear like sword catchers (of course, I know they are not) and then it goes straight. It is starting to call to me (and ear plugs don't help).
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Post by howler on Oct 14, 2017 21:35:25 GMT
This thread is nearly two years old so I imagine you made your decision by now. But starting out with a Filipino blade I recommend the Ginunting. It was my first Filipino bolo and I can attest that it is an extremely light and agile blade. Because of the downward curve the blade seems "faster" because the tip is positioned ahead of the rest of the blade, so it excels at tip cuts. The tradeoff for the slashing speed is that thrusting with it feels awkward and takes some getting used to. And since the top 1/3rd of the false edge on the back is sharpened you can perform some reverse cuts with it if you aim with the tip. My Ginunting came from Kalahai Custom Blades and it is functional but flawed blade. I won't go into great detail but I did need to sharpen it myself because it came very dull. The $50 or so that you save by going with KCB is not worth it in my opinion. You are much better off going with TFW for your Filipino Blades because they always come sharp out of the box and to my knowledge they rarely ship out lemons. And even though they are out of your $250 price range, there is a new Filipino Weapons maker on the market called Top Prado Blades. Their bolos cost roughly $1000 so they are trying to be the Albion of the Filipino Weapons market. I have not handled any of their weapons but the photos and videos I have seen of them are absolutely flawless. www.toppradoblades.com/the-collection.htmlwww.toppradoblades.com/the-collection.htmlThis is great information for me, as I've been eyeballing the various Filipino blades (huge variety of unusual items) and am thinking about the Ginunting. You can see why it is the blade sidearm of the Filipino military due to its robust utility (can chop branches, logs, etc...) yet relatively light weight (24oz) for a 20" blade. Thanks for the info, as I was looking at TFW and considering the less expensive options like KCB. So, would you buy from KOA or somewhere else?
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Oct 14, 2017 22:14:58 GMT
This is great information for me, as I've been eyeballing the various Filipino blades (huge variety of unusual items) and am thinking about the Ginunting. You can see why it is the blade sidearm of the Filipino military due to its robust utility (can chop branches, logs, etc...) yet relatively light weight (24oz) for a 20" blade. That's a nice size/weight point, and common on Philippine swords. For example, this kris is 644g/23oz. This is on the light side for a Moro kris of this size, but not unusual (my heavy old kris are 22"/800g/28oz and 22.5"/850g/30oz).
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Post by kalkikrosah on Oct 15, 2017 0:28:15 GMT
This thread is nearly two years old so I imagine you made your decision by now. But starting out with a Filipino blade I recommend the Ginunting. It was my first Filipino bolo and I can attest that it is an extremely light and agile blade. Because of the downward curve the blade seems "faster" because the tip is positioned ahead of the rest of the blade, so it excels at tip cuts. The tradeoff for the slashing speed is that thrusting with it feels awkward and takes some getting used to. And since the top 1/3rd of the false edge on the back is sharpened you can perform some reverse cuts with it if you aim with the tip. My Ginunting came from Kalahai Custom Blades and it is functional but flawed blade. I won't go into great detail but I did need to sharpen it myself because it came very dull. The $50 or so that you save by going with KCB is not worth it in my opinion. You are much better off going with TFW for your Filipino Blades because they always come sharp out of the box and to my knowledge they rarely ship out lemons. And even though they are out of your $250 price range, there is a new Filipino Weapons maker on the market called Top Prado Blades. Their bolos cost roughly $1000 so they are trying to be the Albion of the Filipino Weapons market. I have not handled any of their weapons but the photos and videos I have seen of them are absolutely flawless. www.toppradoblades.com/the-collection.htmlwww.toppradoblades.com/the-collection.htmlThis is great information for me, as I've been eyeballing the various Filipino blades (huge variety of unusual items) and am thinking about the Ginunting. You can see why it is the blade sidearm of the Filipino military due to its robust utility (can chop branches, logs, etc...) yet relatively light weight (24oz) for a 20" blade. Thanks for the info, as I was looking at TFW and considering the less expensive options like KCB. So, would you buy from KOA or somewhere else? I bought directly from the makers. KoA never gets a bad review on their service so I'm just going to repeat what I've been hearing and say that they are great. The only downside is their stock. Sometimes they don't have what you want in stock so they have to order it. For this reason I bought my karabit straight from TFW even though the price was $20 more or something along that range. I was impatient. If you're not impatient you can always use that feature on the KoA site where you email them a code referring to the piece in question and then they email you back when its in stock again. I didn't feel like waiting at the time so I pulled the trigger right then and there. When I bought directly from TFW (they have a few things on their own site that KoA does not advertise so its worth taking a look) the karambit shipped to me in less than a week. TFW is based in Connecticut, I live in New York, so its not like it had far to travel. I want to say it took between 3-5 days because I ordered it on a Friday and it came in right after the weekend ended. Fast shipping time as far as I am concerned. Karambits are knife sized so mine came in a little puffy manilla envelope. Inside was the karambit with the usual: plastic bag, bubble wrapping, lots of oil. It did come with something a little extra: a TFW magnet. Its nothing spectacular but it is a nice little bonus that I am not sure you would get if you buy from KoA. Out of the two you listed, TFW is the one I would recommend. They have a wide variety of blades and if you don't knit pick about historical accuracy they will surely have something that would interest the common blade collector. For what you get TFW does really fine work, their quality control is fairly good and the craftsmanship is up there as well. KCB on the otherhand just falls short in every way when compared to TFW. Best way to descibe it is that it looks great from far away but when you get closer you can see where corners got cut. The edge came dull, the craftsmanship, while not bad, I would consider to be rough (small gap between guard and blade, uneven grinds, etc.) and the materials are substandard. I am unsure of what steel they use but it probably is a 1060 and not a 5160. On the site the sheath appears to be a complete komagong sheath with a flexible leather belt loop but when you get it you realize that the leather belt loop is this rough synthetic feeling material that is rather stiff and the sheath when you get it in person you realize that it has a good side and a bad side. The reverse side of the sheath is not komagong. It is this lighter color wood, that I do not know the name of and at least on mine that lighter wood has a tiny hole where an insect probably got to it. Nothing major that affects the performance of the blade but a blemish none-the-less. It looks great from really far away though, so if aesthetics are not a major concern and you want something cheap but not crap then yeah, Kalahai should suit your needs.
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Post by howler on Oct 15, 2017 4:30:44 GMT
This is great information for me, as I've been eyeballing the various Filipino blades (huge variety of unusual items) and am thinking about the Ginunting. You can see why it is the blade sidearm of the Filipino military due to its robust utility (can chop branches, logs, etc...) yet relatively light weight (24oz) for a 20" blade. Thanks for the info, as I was looking at TFW and considering the less expensive options like KCB. So, would you buy from KOA or somewhere else? I bought directly from the makers. KoA never gets a bad review on their service so I'm just going to repeat what I've been hearing and say that they are great. The only downside is their stock. Sometimes they don't have what you want in stock so they have to order it. For this reason I bought my karabit straight from TFW even though the price was $20 more or something along that range. I was impatient. If you're not impatient you can always use that feature on the KoA site where you email them a code referring to the piece in question and then they email you back when its in stock again. I didn't feel like waiting at the time so I pulled the trigger right then and there. When I bought directly from TFW (they have a few things on their own site that KoA does not advertise so its worth taking a look) the karambit shipped to me in less than a week. TFW is based in Connecticut, I live in New York, so its not like it had far to travel. I want to say it took between 3-5 days because I ordered it on a Friday and it came in right after the weekend ended. Fast shipping time as far as I am concerned. Karambits are knife sized so mine came in a little puffy manilla envelope. Inside was the karambit with the usual: plastic bag, bubble wrapping, lots of oil. It did come with something a little extra: a TFW magnet. Its nothing spectacular but it is a nice little bonus that I am not sure you would get if you buy from KoA. Out of the two you listed, TFW is the one I would recommend. They have a wide variety of blades and if you don't knit pick about historical accuracy they will surely have something that would interest the common blade collector. For what you get TFW does really fine work, their quality control is fairly good and the craftsmanship is up there as well. KCB on the otherhand just falls short in every way when compared to TFW. Best way to descibe it is that it looks great from far away but when you get closer you can see where corners got cut. The edge came dull, the craftsmanship, while not bad, I would consider to be rough (small gap between guard and blade, uneven grinds, etc.) and the materials are substandard. I am unsure of what steel they use but it probably is a 1060 and not a 5160. On the site the sheath appears to be a complete komagong sheath with a flexible leather belt loop but when you get it you realize that the leather belt loop is this rough synthetic feeling material that is rather stiff and the sheath when you get it in person you realize that it has a good side and a bad side. The reverse side of the sheath is not komagong. It is this lighter color wood, that I do not know the name of and at least on mine that lighter wood has a tiny hole where an insect probably got to it. Nothing major that affects the performance of the blade but a blemish none-the-less. It looks great from really far away though, so if aesthetics are not a major concern and you want something cheap but not crap then yeah, Kalahai should suit your needs. TFW from KOA seems AOK for me. I could get carried away with not buying a ton of these blades so I'll have to control myself (not an easy task). They ain't cheap, so that will hold me in check, so that Ginunting will probably the first volunteer to enter my grasp. God, that thing was just made for the snap cut, and seems a near perfect SHTF sword (light with functional utility).
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Post by howler on Oct 15, 2017 4:32:06 GMT
This is great information for me, as I've been eyeballing the various Filipino blades (huge variety of unusual items) and am thinking about the Ginunting. You can see why it is the blade sidearm of the Filipino military due to its robust utility (can chop branches, logs, etc...) yet relatively light weight (24oz) for a 20" blade. That's a nice size/weight point, and common on Philippine swords. For example, this kris is 644g/23oz. This is on the light side for a Moro kris of this size, but not unusual (my heavy old kris are 22"/800g/28oz and 22.5"/850g/30oz). Yeah, that is just a great size to weight profile.
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Post by howler on Oct 18, 2017 3:16:58 GMT
This is great information for me, as I've been eyeballing the various Filipino blades (huge variety of unusual items) and am thinking about the Ginunting. You can see why it is the blade sidearm of the Filipino military due to its robust utility (can chop branches, logs, etc...) yet relatively light weight (24oz) for a 20" blade. That's a nice size/weight point, and common on Philippine swords. For example, this kris is 644g/23oz. This is on the light side for a Moro kris of this size, but not unusual (my heavy old kris are 22"/800g/28oz and 22.5"/850g/30oz). I wonder if TFW is phasing in shorter blades on their Moro Kris line, as I see a bunch of 20" blades rather than 23 1/2" on their sword descriptions?
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