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Post by Kiyoshi on Oct 20, 2015 11:41:57 GMT
Introduction
Hello everyone. I recently bought a custom daisho from Sheng of St-Nihonto to see what he could make. The set was a total of $850. I ordered this and had to wait for too long and had very poor customer service, but after all fo that, was it worth it? Let's find out. Historical overviewThis sword is modeled after a nihonto daisho set to see how well he could match the geometry. I wanted something traditionally styled while still looking like something I'd use (ie, plain and boring). Full DisclosureI received this sword by paying full price without letting him know I was reviewing until it was too late for him to change things. I'm not affiliated with anyone so... Initial ImpressionsStandard foam with yellow tape... Not much to say. Statistics KatanaNagasa Length: Asked 29", actual 28 7/8" Tsuka Length: Asked 10", actual 10" Overall Length: 43" Tsuba Width: 3" POB: 6" Weightiness: 14" Weight: (will update if I can get a hold of a scale) WakizashiNagasa Length: Asked 20", actual 19 7/8" Tsuka Length: Asked 8", actual 8 1/8" Overall Length: 31" Tsuba Width: 3" POB: 2 1/2" Weightiness: 13" Weight: (will update if I can get a hold of a scale) Katana
The Blade
The blade is well polished. In these pictures, I had not removed the thick oil yet, it looks even better with it gone. The blade is well shaped but the yokote should be angled a little different. The kissaki has a change in grain angle so it is either a clever forge trick or genuinely made. The kissaki is a little thin in some places, which seems to be the case on the other I own as well. Overall the blade is very nice, I've not seen one this well done in many other places. There are faults though. I asked for niku and got none. I asked for a kaeri on the boshi and did not get one. I also did not receive a hazyua finish on the kissaki as requested. On the bright side, the particles in the steel look well enough formed to look like an even heat treat. The TsukaThe tsuka is well shaped when compared to most Chinese made katana I have seen. It curves a little with the blade but doens't follow it as well as it could. The shaping is okay. It is better than my other, but it is also thicker feeling in a bad way. This may just be me getting used to the other tsuka though. The ito is cotton. It isn't shoelacey, but it is rough. It is similar to Japanese cotton, if it was fused with tree bark. I also requested no menuki and a signle mekugi but I received neither. Edit: I forgot to mention, the same is pretty low quality. The Tsuba/HabakiThe tsuba is plain iron. It seems to be sturdy and has a simple design. There is no movement upon arrival. I'll update this if that changes. The habaki is silver colored. It did not have file markings like I requested either. In my opinion, this makes it too bright and lessens the aesthetic. The same goes for the overly bright seppa. The habaki also as some small gaps near the sides which wouldn't be present if the blade has niku. The Fuchi-KashiraThese are very plain fuchi and kashira. They suit my tastes well. They fit and have no wiggle room as of yet. SayaThe saya appears to be well made. The horn has a clear layer that easily chips away, nearly immediately. Handling CharacteristicsThe balance and weightiness could be better. The sword still feels pretty good to wield. Test CuttingThe test cuts I did were all on light targets. This sword definitely feels sharper than my other. It did not get much of a scratch even from plastic bottles (though I only cut a few). I did some cuts with just the tip of the sword and it cut well too. It handles really well and is easy to control. The main downside is that the polish is so nice that I don't want to cut with it, lol. It was easily able to cut through falling leaves, water bottles, and pool noodles. I didn't try dowels or anything because I don't cut those normally and I don't want to possibly damage the polish. Wakizashi The Blade
The blade is about the same as on the katana. The main difference is that the kissaki is a little less smoothly finished. The Tsuka
Not a bad feel, but it definitely is katana shaped instead of wakizashi. The Tsuba/Habaki
Same issues as on the katana. The Fuchi-Kashira
SayaHandling Characteristics
The wakizashi feels better to hold that the katana as far as balance and weightiness. The only thing holding it back is the larger than should be tsuka. Test Cutting
I only cut a little with the wakizashi. It cut easily with proper form. If you swing using your whole arm and body it cuts just as eaily as the katana. It has a little tough time with shallow flicking cuts that one might feel apt to do. Conclusions
Both of these are nice blades. It is a huge shame that sheng seemed to care so little about the customer and the fit and finish of these swords. If he had only paid a little more attention, I could whole heartidly recommend him to anyone. However, due to his completely abysmal customer service and obvious lack of care for the customer, I can't. Go buy somewhere else. Pros- Great polish- Decent sugata- Could be worse tsukaCons- Customer service- Did not listen/care about customer- Worst koiguchi fit everThe Bottom LineGo buy swords from someone else. Most of the work is done by people who aren't the guy you're talking to. I'm sure nothing on this sword was truly a Sheng exclusive. I'm sure if you were to work with even or any other guy, they'd be able to get a good polish like this and you can send most of them fittings and they'll use them. Dealing with him was just not worth it. If it wasn't for the fact that I'm getting these remounted come tax time, I'd return them for the sheer lack of not doing what was asked involved. Google Drive link to full size photos and a few pictures from the sword being made. drive.google.com/open?id=0B3PfkH-9qPrqNDY4VzBtMV9GM0UUpdates:The tsuba has some lateral movement. The paint has rubbed off on parts of it and the non painted parts rust really fast. There is also a crack running through the back side of the tsuba. I scratched up the habaki and shimmed the saya. I think the habaki has a bad fit or something because even though the sword fits tight into the saya, it still doesn't line up with the koiguchi. The wrap on this is pretty tight still. The edge rolled a little when it hit something it really shouldn't have by accident (cinder block, don't let others hold your shiny) but did not chip. The tsuka has become more comfortable but is still too bulky. I really think this sword could have been a gem if just a little more effort was put into the customer service end.
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Post by MessengerofDarkness on Oct 20, 2015 12:45:50 GMT
Overall a very even and consistent review, I think - you covered most of the initial impressions very well, it's just too bad that they weren't more in line with what you originally wanted/requested from Sheng.
I have to agree that it seems like Sheng didn't seems to put much thought or consideration in your Daisho set, which is unfortunate - sorry to hear that they got so many little things wrong with them
I would be interested to see a disassembly and test cutting though, to see how nice the tsuka fit is, and how well they actually perform. Either way though, thanks for the review. :)
(+2 Karma, one for each blade.)
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Post by Kiyoshi on Oct 20, 2015 12:50:23 GMT
Overall a very even and consistent review, I think - you covered most of the initial impressions very well, it's just too bad that they weren't more in line with what you originally wanted/requested from Sheng. I have to agree that it seems like Sheng didn't seems to put much thought or consideration in your Daisho set, which is unfortunate - sorry to hear that they got so many little things wrong with them I would be interested to see a disassembly and test cutting though, to see how nice the tsuka fit is, and how well they actually perform. Either way though, thanks for the review. (+2 Karma, one for each blade.) Thanks for your kind words. I'll do some test cutting this week. I tried to disassemble the sword but I was unable to without destroying the mekugi. The pegs won't move and they started to split. One of them is also covered by the menuki so I'd have a hard time with that. I'll make sure they get a good remount come tax season.
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Post by MessengerofDarkness on Oct 20, 2015 12:53:25 GMT
Overall a very even and consistent review, I think - you covered most of the initial impressions very well, it's just too bad that they weren't more in line with what you originally wanted/requested from Sheng. I have to agree that it seems like Sheng didn't seems to put much thought or consideration in your Daisho set, which is unfortunate - sorry to hear that they got so many little things wrong with them I would be interested to see a disassembly and test cutting though, to see how nice the tsuka fit is, and how well they actually perform. Either way though, thanks for the review. :) (+2 Karma, one for each blade.) Thanks for your kind words. I'll do some test cutting this week. I tried to disassemble the sword but I was unable to without destroying the mekugi. The pegs won't move and they started to split. One of them is also covered by the menuki so I'd have a hard time with that. I'll make sure they get a good remount come tax season. I think a remount would go a long way - at least you have a healthy base to work up from. And yeah, a lot of the Chinese 'Ishime' lacquer is really just a cheaper splatter paint effect, but at least it doesn't show fingerprints either - the coated horn parts are standard too, I have one that is similar - I would recommend picking/buffing that completely off, it'll make it look a lot nicer.
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Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Oct 20, 2015 12:56:06 GMT
Sorry to hear that you didn't get what you ordered, or even good enough to accept it as is. I'm sure it's disappointing especially at the cost you paid.
If you don't mind: 1) How do you know the fittings are iron because steel, including 440C stainless, will attract a magnet. Or did you do the magnet test because you didn't want painted copper or brass? I think I noticed that some of the paint rubbed off the fittings. If this is correct what color is the material under the paint
2) You didn't state in the review that the blades are folded T10 or 1095 (not sure which) but you did mention something in the vid.
3) FYI: I have heard that St-Nihonto is Ryansword. I learned this from Donnie Reed (ex-rep for RS).
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Post by Kiyoshi on Oct 20, 2015 12:57:42 GMT
Yeah, it will. The paint job is just splatter. It's better feeling than some stuff I've seen from some of the other guys like swordsmith668 and what not. The paint job does feel like it will flake off as easily as the other one I have from sheng. It feels like the one from kaneie which was my favorite part of the yama no kumo. Granted the saya feels a little weaker in wood construction though. I plan on picking off the gloss while I mess around on the computer some time. The horn with no layering looks nicer to me anyway.
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Post by Kiyoshi on Oct 20, 2015 13:06:20 GMT
Sorry to hear that you didn't get what you ordered, or even good enough to accept it as is. I'm sure it's disappointing especially at the cost you paid. If you don't mind: 1) How do you know the fittings are iron because steel, including 440C stainless, will attract a magnet. Or did you do the magnet test because you didn't want painted copper or brass? I think I noticed that some of the paint rubbed off the fittings. If this is correct what color is the material under the paint 2) You didn't state in the review that the blades are folded T10 or 1095 (not sure which) but you did mention something in the vid. 3) FYI: I have heard that St-Nihonto is Ryansword. I learned this from Donnie Reed (ex-rep for RS). The address for the RS sword I got this year is Ryan Longquan China 79# NAN QIN RD 323700 1. It is the way it reacts to the magnet that determines whether it is steel or iron. Iron has a stronger attraction but loses it quickly. Steel is a kind of gradual attraction and loses it gradually as well. It is a feel kind of thing. I tried it out on various things I knew to be steel and iron to get a feel. The paint was not missing on the new swords. There was powder on it that I'm not sure what was. It has no noticeable sanding marks from the mold either. As for the other one that was missing paint, the fittings were a soft steel. I can bend them with a strong grip. 2. They are supposedly T10 but I honestly couldn't tell you the difference between the two. I don't know enough about metalurgy testing to do so. The only T10 I have comes from china. Either one it is fine to me though. 3. I've read this, and I'm pretty unsure. Donnie has had some rather unusual outbursts some which have been rude and out of place, if not outright lies. However, he does have some good credibility. Whether or not sheng is just a ryansword reseller or not, the thing that makes me say he is no good is his customer service which is abysmal to say the least. So for now I'll not say if he is one way or the other.
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Post by Kiyoshi on Oct 20, 2015 13:26:47 GMT
For the curious, sheng's address is jianci garden 401unit, Lishui, Zhejiang, China. By the looks of it, it operates the way described in the ronin katana blog posts. I don't think a whole factory would have a.single unit number. A picture of the address is in Jussi's thread here: sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/attachment/download/23830
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Post by nddave on Oct 20, 2015 14:12:21 GMT
Nice review, too bad they didn't pan out...
Regarding the post above, I wouldn't be surprised if almost half if not more of the Ebay vendors we pick and prod all get swords from the same factories.
It be like you, me and whoever getting into the eBay sword selling business. I'm me you're you and then their whoever, we all have our own sales pitches page decorations, guarantees, prices customization options and so forth. Though our customization pieces are exactly the same, our customization abilities are the same (except for me who guarantees tamagahane lamination for only $300!!!...) and not surprising all our example pics look the same.
What this tells me as a buyer is 8 out of 10 times you're dealing with the same Chinese forge. The only difference is the Ebay vendor who is either independent like Chris from Ronin or Ryan Sword or whoever. Or they're some office dude from said forge trying to sell directly without paying commission to government 2nd parties or deal with the requests of independent 3rd parties. You're getting the same product just through different sellers and possibly different levels of quality pending on honesty of the seller and what part of the factory forge your sword was made.
Honestly have any of you who do buy these Ebay Custom Katana ever really got what you wanted 100% accurate regarding what you've ordered, what it's craftsmanship was proposed upon order or that's durability geometry and handling was also proposed upon order. Honestly I've yet to hear one I think over my years of reading these reviews that wasn't riddled with compromises to the fact.
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Post by Kiyoshi on Oct 20, 2015 14:27:13 GMT
My last sword was actually accurate to what I wanted. It wasn't the best constructed but I didn't expect it to be for only $400. I thought it was sanmai, then I polished it a few times and the lamination disappeared. However, after polishing it another time because I forgot to clean it and I got some surface rust, the lamination line is back and much more clear. The purpose of this, along with taking a risk for a good sword, was to see the limits of what they can produce by asking a lot of very specific minor details. I have no doubt that the forges can make a great sword, their communication skills and lack of people care for their customers prevent that. All of the things that were wrong on my sword are things that resulted from the lack of care. They are things that I have personally seen on ebay swords and know can be done, just that they don't.
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Post by nddave on Oct 20, 2015 15:17:31 GMT
My last sword was actually accurate to what I wanted. It wasn't the best constructed but I didn't expect it to be for only $400. I thought it was sanmai, then I polished it a few times and the lamination disappeared. However, after polishing it another time because I forgot to clean it and I got some surface rust, the lamination line is back and much more clear. The purpose of this, along with taking a risk for a good sword, was to see the limits of what they can produce by asking a lot of very specific minor details. I have no doubt that the forges can make a great sword, their communication skills and lack of people care for their customers prevent that. All of the things that were wrong on my sword are things that resulted from the lack of care. They are things that I have personally seen on ebay swords and know can be done, just that they don't. Well you can't do much to make a worker care about his work unfortunately, be that cashiers, plumbers or even sword salesmen. Customer service is definitely a work ethic that flowers from ones personality mixed with proper training. One thing I think that maybe we could enforce or grind is having a bilingual representative to take orders and specifications on custom orders. I think it'd go a long way with the Ebay vendors. Not just English either, if you're selling to Germany, USA, UK, France or wherever if your going to sell to those countries you should have a representative that can fluently talk to the customer. If not you've already cut your production and customer satisfaction by at least if not more than 50%, great customer service or not. It may sound crude but if i ever contacted or made a order with a Ebay vendor and all I got was Chinese or really bad Chinenglish I'd request either someone who could speak to me fluently or that could read my order in the correct manner or go elsewhere. I shouldn't have to learn Chinese to buy a sword, they're selling to me not the other way around.
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Post by Kiyoshi on Oct 20, 2015 15:21:21 GMT
Personality plays a major role for sure. And a bilingual contact would make things happen so much easier. Even if everyone was just a dude in the same factory with their own unit number, I'd still pick the guy who I knew would understand what I wanted and was friendly. I'd even pay a little more for it. Too bad for us that we compose such a small portion of the market so they won't mind losing us.
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Post by nddave on Oct 20, 2015 15:31:17 GMT
Personality plays a major role for sure. And a bilingual contact would make things happen so much easier. Even if everyone was just a dude in the same factory with their own unit number, I'd still pick the guy who I knew would understand i I wanted and was friendly. I'd even pay a little more for it. Too bad for us that we compose such a small portion of the market so they won't mind losing us. Well the best we can do is speak with out wallets. Once the orders quit coming in they'll understand. The small market is really a double edge sword (pun intended;) ) don't forget they need us just as much as we need them. Without sword enthusiasts like us who's going to buy swords?
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Post by Kiyoshi on Oct 20, 2015 15:37:36 GMT
The large number of people on YouTube spazzing over 24,000 layers of tank cutting swords named oni kiri (pardon the bad joke) something or another. A lot of people are under informed and will jump at the chance to buy, in their opinions, a genuine katana hand made by master smiths. That's what they cater too.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Oct 20, 2015 22:08:03 GMT
I like the tsuba. Are the two of them identical, or different (i.e., is the pattern from casting)?
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Post by Kiyoshi on Oct 20, 2015 22:28:05 GMT
The shape from the cast is identical. I don't know if the indention pattern is though. I'll have to see when I get home tonight. They are likely iron but they have a slightly weaker than I expected magnet pull. However, it is still more than the steel fittings.
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Post by zabazagobo on Oct 20, 2015 23:55:13 GMT
Kiyoshi, I'm really sorry to hear your customs didn't turn out as expected. When you messaged me yesterday I was hoping you meant they exceeded expectations, not the other way around. The fact that you experienced the customer service you did and received swords that didn't exactly meet specifications would make me return them. That being said, if you do end up customizing them I look forward to seeing what you come up with as you strike me as having good taste.
I agree the polish is nice and I like the looks of the tsuka-ito. The tsuba looks really cool too: lately I've really been debating picking up a Hanwei Ronin for the blackity black theme with the iron tsuba, although the Bushido just seems like it has to be my next purchase.
Back to the daisho though, I agree with most of the nits you picked. The koiguchi fit I saw in the video is in desperate need of a shim, and I don't know why but the kurigata seems too blingy. The lack of niku is disappointing, I wonder if there is some conspiracy or something about ebay vendors being "vegetarian"? Between Sheng, Yao and Jacky I still haven't seen a good heavy niku blade off of ebay. Here's to hoping RinC's Huawei custom comes through....eventually. On a side note, nice flow man!
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Post by MessengerofDarkness on Oct 21, 2015 0:25:17 GMT
Kiyoshi, I'm really sorry to hear your customs didn't turn out as expected. When you messaged me yesterday I was hoping you meant they exceeded expectations, not the other way around. The fact that you experienced the customer service you did and received swords that didn't exactly meet specifications would make me return them. That being said, if you do end up customizing them I look forward to seeing what you come up with as you strike me as having good taste. I agree the polish is nice and I like the looks of the tsuka-ito. The tsuba looks really cool too: lately I've really been debating picking up a Hanwei Ronin for the blackity black theme with the iron tsuba, although the Bushido just seems like it has to be my next purchase. Back to the daisho though, I agree with most of the nits you picked. The koiguchi fit I saw in the video is in desperate need of a shim, and I don't know why but the kurigata seems too blingy. The lack of niku is disappointing, I wonder if there is some conspiracy or something about ebay vendors being "vegetarian"? Between Sheng, Yao and Jacky I still haven't seen a good heavy niku blade off of ebay. Here's to hoping RinC's Huawei custom comes through....eventually. On a side note, nice flow man! I think the lack of significant Niku is more to do with the way that most of their blades are forged - a lot of the initial bladework, at least for the low-mid price range katana, are done on machines. And more often than not, the polishing that is done on them is with a sheet of sandpaper wrapped around a flat metal surface, so there's no natural curve for the blade to conform to when its being polished, thus sanding the surface flat. That being said, I also asked for niku geometry on my sword from Even, so once I get it from him, I'll be sure to check that out.
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Post by zabazagobo on Oct 21, 2015 0:42:40 GMT
I think the lack of significant Niku is more to do with the way that most of their blades are forged - a lot of the initial bladework, at least for the low-mid price range katana, are done on machines. And more often than not, the polishing that is done on them is with a sheet of sandpaper wrapped around a flat metal surface, so there's no natural curve for the blade to conform to when its being polished, thus sanding the surface flat. That being said, I also asked for niku geometry on my sword from Even, so once I get it from him, I'll be sure to check that out. This makes total sense from a manufacturing standpoint. If anything this might further encourage me to just look at higher end production and semi-custom pieces to get a blade with thick niku. Although one can still hope. Maybe how your sword turns out will hopefully change my tune.
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Post by MessengerofDarkness on Oct 21, 2015 0:47:15 GMT
I think the lack of significant Niku is more to do with the way that most of their blades are forged - a lot of the initial bladework, at least for the low-mid price range katana, are done on machines. And more often than not, the polishing that is done on them is with a sheet of sandpaper wrapped around a flat metal surface, so there's no natural curve for the blade to conform to when its being polished, thus sanding the surface flat. That being said, I also asked for niku geometry on my sword from Even, so once I get it from him, I'll be sure to check that out. This makes total sense from a manufacturing standpoint. If anything this might further encourage me to just look at higher end production and semi-custom pieces to get a blade with thick niku. Although one can still hope. Maybe how your sword turns out will hopefully change my tune. Here's hoping - I didn't get any good geometry shots from Even, and the blade is already mid-route, so I can't get any more. Though, I don't mind a blade with slim niku anyways, I just asked for it mainly to see fi they could actually do it. XD And worst case scenario, you could always pick up a bare/shirasaya blade and have it customized and remounted, so keep that in mind. :)
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