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Post by Adrian Jordan on Sept 16, 2015 7:37:47 GMT
Hello.
Lately it has been reported to the staff here that instances of scalping behavior have been seen both on this forum and the Facebook page. To clarify, this means that members have been approached with posts and PM's directing them away from this site to other sites for whatever reason, be it for advertising a new group or page that a member has created(dump this zero, get with the hero) or to subvert a sale. This is seen as extremely bad form, and in certain instances is against the rules.
For example:
1. Member A asks where to find a sword. Member B responds that it can be found at several sites, and that Kult of Athena currently has the best price and customer service. That's great. All good.
2. Member A posts a sale. Member B posts "PM sent". Member C contacts Member B saying that he should not buy from A, should go to Site X and buy from Site X's Member D instead. Not cool.
3. New Guy asks a question. Forum member says that it's a good idea to post this at the Nihonto Message Board, since the number of experts there is greater and they can receive more information there. Right on.
4. New guy asks a question. Forum member has recently opened his own page, PM's New Guy and says that it's lame around here, go to this new page where all the cool kids are. Not helpful, and in very poor taste.
Also, the instances of M&V members posting sales outside of the M&V section has gone up. For those who are considering becoming an M&V status member(which is necessary for a manufacturer or vendor to sale on this site) realize that it is not an open carry license. Any sales must be conducted through the M&V page, as are announcements and discussion of new products. This rule carries over to the Facebook page as well.
In the end, SBG is not an advertising site, especially not to direct members away from the SBG forum. Bear in mind, this site is owned and run by Paul Southern. It's his vision that this be a site where people can discuss all aspects of swords, buy and trade swords, and provide education to each other about swords in a friendly, laid-back atmosphere. Paul finances the site via sales made at the SBG Sword Store. If attendance and sales are directed away from our site, it will eventually close.
Thank you.
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Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Sept 16, 2015 7:48:57 GMT
What do you mean by posting sales outside of M&V area, don't think I've did this.
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Sept 16, 2015 21:43:52 GMT
Not saying that you did, amigo. It means that people granted M&V status can not post items for sale in any area except the M&V area.It was meant as a reminder to those with M&V permits, both new and old, and to let those who seek a permit that the rules say this. Sometimes a newly minted M&Ver will not realize that they can only sale and advertise in that one area, not the whole forum.
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Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Sept 17, 2015 5:36:20 GMT
Think I know where some of this comes from and the people who are doing it will know what he's talking about. A lot goes on with PM's we don't know about. Of course I could be wrong.
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Sept 17, 2015 19:51:15 GMT
Sorry if the message wasn't clear. Moderators and administration have received messages reporting the behavior outlined above, both here and on the Facebook page. These actions can lead to diminished attendance and sales. Both of those can lead to a forum that is fiscally unsustainable. As for M&V sales and advertising outside of their section; that is simply against the rules. Finally, as for the undercutting or disrupting of private sales, of which SBG receives no cut, it is rude, bad form.
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Post by LG Martial Arts on Sept 17, 2015 23:23:08 GMT
trying to figure this out... M&V's can't post ANY sales/other info about their businesses on the SBG Facebook page at all? Since getting my M&V status, I've posted a few sales threads (far and few in between) on SBG's FB page (but not in the reg classifieds here), and a link to my online store maybe twice... I didn't know there were rules against that (and yes, I understand that ignorance of a rule or rules don't make the behavior OK), so if I'm one of these "leechers", I apologize. Even though I haven't been as active in the past few months here as I'd like, I would hate to have SBG close down because of "leechers/scalping" - I've met many great people on this forum, and would hate to lose the camaraderie/info shared on this site.
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Sept 17, 2015 23:33:59 GMT
To the best of my understanding, as an M&V, it is okay to post your stuff on Facebook as long as it is strictly to your own business site. I'll check in to make sure that this is 100% accurate.
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Post by danmasamori on Sept 18, 2015 1:15:56 GMT
So to clarify, are you saying if someone happens to have a sword for sale in the classifieds either for a much higher price then what was originally paid or higher then the current market value (I have personally witnessed several sales threads like this BTW), we cannot alert the perspective buyer to the inflated price via PM?
I know there are times where people don't realize that there sword just isn't worth what they are asking due to sales or price drops. But I am sure there are also times where people know they are asking for much more then what was originally paid, which is scalping. ie: Buying during a sale and listing for sale here at normal retail price, buying from a forumites classifieds sale and then turning around and relisting the same exact item at a ridiculously inflated price.
BTW, I've never pm'd a perspective buyer myself to alert them of an inflated cost, although there are times I've REALLY wanted to. I have however pm'd sellers on inflated prices in the past. Just like to know what's acceptable, I'd hate to think that SBG would support the practices I outlined above..
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Sept 18, 2015 2:01:56 GMT
That's not against the rules. It's called price policing, and is not allowed on some other sites, but it is not against the rules to mention to a seller that their price is high. It's their prerogative as to whether or not they'll listen, and to a buyer whether they will buy.
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Sean (Shadowhowler)
VIP Reviewer
Retired Moderator
No matter where you go, there you are.
Posts: 8,828
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on Sept 18, 2015 4:31:57 GMT
So to clarify, are you saying if someone happens to have a sword for sale in the classifieds either for a much higher price then what was originally paid or higher then the current market value (I have personally witnessed several sales threads like this BTW), we cannot alert the perspective buyer to the inflated price via PM? I know there are times where people don't realize that there sword just isn't worth what they are asking due to sales or price drops. But I am sure there are also times where people know they are asking for much more then what was originally paid, which is scalping. ie: Buying during a sale and listing for sale here at normal retail price, buying from a forumites classifieds sale and then turning around and relisting the same exact item at a ridiculously inflated price. BTW, I've never pm'd a perspective buyer myself to alert them of an inflated cost, although there are times I've REALLY wanted to. I have however pm'd sellers on inflated prices in the past. Just like to know what's acceptable, I'd hate to think that SBG would support the practices I outlined above.. I have done this also... sent a pm to a seller who was listing an item for an obviously inflated price. I have not sent a pm to a buyer I don't think... unless they pm'ed me first to ask if something was a good deal. This has happened a LOT... and I don't mind, I actually am flattered that those folks who took the time to pm me and get my opinion thought highly enough of me to do so.
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Post by Afoo on Sept 18, 2015 22:50:18 GMT
I think it is good to make people aware of the issue, regardless of whether it is founded or not.
However, as @findlithui pointed out, this is the internet. While we do try to have a very nice and friendly environment, there is still some onus on the buyer, or indeed any forum user to verify information which they see, and to be responsible for any decisions they make. There are some people on the forums whose word I would take as fact, but this is after several months of research and discussion on the forums.
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Post by Cottontail Customs on Sept 20, 2015 4:52:49 GMT
Being Old? Still confused.... probably what old people do on a regular basis . I'm also confused and I guess I'm not exactly young but then again, there was a lot I didn't get even when I was I suppose though if I'm not guilty of these offenses, it doesn't really matter if I understand or not as long as the ones that are guilty understand and cease to continue. If I am guilty of doing this, maybe someone can explain in a simpler way so I can understand and get on the right track. I never did that well on the reading comprehension tests in school
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Sept 20, 2015 19:44:00 GMT
Sorry guys, but I've hit a wall on how to best explain it myself. Here it is put a bit more bluntly on the questions that have arrived.
Directing SBG members to other sites to sell items or posting on this site to get members to join other sites instead of SBG is not allowed. This site does not condone members advertising their sites on SBG. This does not apply to SBG M&V account holders directing members to their business site in the SBG M&V Section.
Members cannot price check a seller in the classified section (For Sale) and can only do so via pm as a heads up to the seller. The seller can ask whatever they want in the classified section without members posting in their thread.
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Post by Afoo on Sept 21, 2015 3:17:42 GMT
[...] Directing SBG members to other sites to sell items or posting on this site to get members to join other sites instead of SBG is not allowed. This site does not condone members advertising their sites on SBG [...] Just to clarify, would this restriction be limited to members promoting their *own* site for personal gain? We do have a few threads where we post to external websites (e-bay finds thread, the MRl Deal of the Day thread or the KoA thread pre-owned items alert thread) which would apparently violate these rules if it applied to all forms of re-direction and promotion of other sites. If this is the case, then would we be satisfied sticking with the "common sense" rule for regulating these posts (ie: posting links to KoA's discount section with a cool new find is fine, but me posting links to a cool new item at "Afoo's Sketch Sword Emporium that is Suspiciously Similar to my User Profile" is not)? The common sense rule appears to be working for now. However, to play devil's advocate, the distinction between promoting new specials at KoA, and promoting new specials at another site with which I may be secretly affiliated with, could potentially be a bit fuzzy. I mean, for all we know, SBG member Demonskull, who is usually the one to post the MRL DoD, could be an affiliate of theirs. Alternatively, for a while I was promoting Grommets Cutlery a bit. I discovered that they had quite a bit of OOP Windlas items, and figured people might be interested. I am not actually affiliated with them (beyond buying a single sword from them once). However, a new member may not know that, and get the false impression concerning the impartiality of our forums and the trustworthiness of the information we provide. Again, I like the common sense system. While it may have its flaws, no system is perfect. Besides, it seems to be working for now. However, some food for thought. maybe we can move all the vendor-associated threads ( MRL DoD, KoA used items etc) to the SBG Cafe, where they can hang out with the e-bay finds thread.
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Post by William Swiger on Sept 21, 2015 7:31:18 GMT
Please stop trying to over analyze this.
Directing SBG members to other sites/FB to sell items is not allowed. Posting on this site to get members to join other SBG member sites instead of SBG is not allowed. This site does not condone members advertising their sites on SBG.
If a member posts a sale item and another member contacts him/her in the open forum or by pm and encourages him/her to sell their items on that members site/FB Page, it is not allowed. If a member promotes their site/FB page as an attempt to divert SBG members away from here, that is not allowed. These members are trying to circumvent/use SBG for their own benefit. What it boils down to is SBG is not a recruiting area for SBG members to promote their own sites. M&V Account holders can advertise their primary business site in the M&V Section of the forum. M&V account holders cannot go into the general forum area and promote their sites or products. If you don't own/run your own edged weapon site/FB Page, none of this applies to you.
The MRL and other similar type postings are fine.
There are no restrictions for members mentioning other sites if they are not affiliated with the sites they are mentioning.
This forum is fully funded by Paul from sales from the SBG Store and many times he has paid from his own pocket to keep it going. It is in very bad taste to use Paul and this forum to self promote your own site or FB Page on his dime.
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Post by Afoo on Sept 21, 2015 14:21:35 GMT
I understand what the issue was about - SBG is a community, not a tool for people to push their product onto unsuspecting members. That is perfectly clear, and reasonable.
I also believe that the "common sense" rule we have been using has worked fairly well in keeping the forums clean - at least in the areas which I frequent.
My point though was that, while we have this discussion going, maybe we could consider whether we need a more formal set of rules concerning posting links to external vendors - perhaps restricting them to certain sections or marking them with a tab - only because it may be difficult to determine the extent to which a given member is associated with a particular vendor. Again, for all we know, Demonskull could be a MRL employee, and I could be one from KoA. Alternatively, it could be easy to mistake a dedicated and vocal fan of a particular vendor from an undercover employee.
If my replies are un-necessarily complicating the matter or distracting from the purpose of this thread, please feel free to move them around or delete them. I do not have any problems with the contents of the announcement - I fully support your actions, and I apologize if that was the message which was conveyed in my previous post. I just think this is a good opportunity to have a discussion about how we approach posting links to external websites and vendors on the forums, and whether we can add or contribute anything further to the posted guidelines to ensure our forums remain a friendly and impartial place of discussion.
Again, I am all for keeping the common sense/moderator's professional judgement rule we have going on, but perhaps other members (especially those who frequent the parts of the forum I don't) might have other opinions to add. I don't want to knit pick or criticize or cause trouble of any sort - just seeing if there is something further to add to the discussion.
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Post by William Swiger on Sept 21, 2015 15:09:15 GMT
We are watching you now........ Folks can post in this thread if they want. It is actually Adrian's thread.
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Post by Afoo on Sept 21, 2015 15:46:42 GMT
You got me. I actually run a sword dealership on the side. On an unrelated note, you should definitely visit Afoo's Sketchy Sword Emporium today for all your sword buying needs :P
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Post by Croccifixio on Sept 22, 2015 2:45:45 GMT
That's great Afoo! I myself have been looking for a sketchy sword for some time now to slay those sketchy bottles.
I think I know the incident, the one involved, and the site/fb page in question. I think it was a harmless situation that could, however, spiral out of control especially for the newer members. This is a good solution.
One way to avert additional related issues might be to tighten things up in the classifieds. I understand that Bill recently reiterated the rules on thread titling and pming, but perhaps a step further? How about the M&V section having similar rules on thread titles? Or a marker for unsold items in the private classifieds?
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Sept 22, 2015 7:05:05 GMT
I'm not sure it was one single thing, just something that was noticed over time and needed to be addressed. All the M&V's we have that I have had contact with are stand-up people, and I don't think that any of them would intentionally try to damage the forum.
Ways to improve clarity and ease of following the rules in the classifieds have been discussed. The honing and reiterating of rules is the first step we've taken, since we can't really expect people to follow murky rules to the tee. We'll continue to keep trying to get and keep everything humming along.
Thanks everyone for working with us to keep the forum going, and sorry for any confusion that has resulted from my announcements lack of focus.
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