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Post by tareece on Apr 26, 2008 6:13:40 GMT
This is the m1852 Naval Officers Sword a882.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/27/l_fe8095584cd66a42ed75c09e4a28fb19.jpg a587.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/109/l_a35ce5f8a799d70fa141487326fe817a.jpga607.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/110/l_f58a8abd57a69e04cf619aaba7537f5e.jpga786.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/24/l_2dc42bda708d40fae72591c4727c78a9.jpgI was thinking that the stamped numbers on the sword and scabbard were the last digits of the years it was produced. The sword would be from 1853 then. But with continued research it could be the serial number which could mean it was the 53rd ever made by Browning and King who made them for the Navy for 63 years from 1855-1918. It was never engraved with a name thus maybe never awarded? If I was a Navy Officer, I'd want my name on it, I would think anyways.... Its in excellant shape, I've got better photos today that I'll post. This is the Knights Templar Masonic sword. a255.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/122/l_46781f6104733929dec0b07eda3a2ee6.jpga20.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/108/l_7ceb40912b025bb5cd753ab8e2a6c99b.jpg I think this maybe an old, old sword. Its a mystery I hope to unravel. Its made by a maker who is unknown according to the research I've done. HOWEVER, a man from Pennsylvania matching the makers name (Chas. Naylor of Philly) was a congressman and lawyer. He was instrimental in gathering forces in Penn. for the needs of the Union during the 1846 start of the Mexican War that resulted in Texas and the west coast being won. Theres a "2" stamped on the scabbard in two places and if thats also a serial # that'd be the 2nd ever made by this Mr. Naylor. The sword was presented to a Geo.(George) S. Smith So, the mysteries I see are: Their respective ages, who is Chas. Naylor, who was this Mr. Smith, who was issued the naval #53. I know some questions may never be answered, but this is what makes it fun. Anyone with any information on the makers, the actual meanings of the stamping numbers (is it a date or serial number?), possible leads and sites for me to visit, please email me. Thanks so much. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2008 12:35:08 GMT
Your naval sword has the appearance of a post-1900 sword to me, but it could be late 19th century as well. The masonic sword probably falls into the same time frame. Browning, King & Co. (retailer of the naval sword) were not sword makers, but were clothiers,uniform and regalia dealers. Charles Naylor was a regalia and fraternal sword dealer who operated out of Philadelphia between 1870 and 1923, and he was an authorized retailer of Ames swords.
If you can provide more pictures and description of the masonic sword we may be able to help you determine the fraternal order to which this sword belongs. Once we figure out the fraternal order we can figure out how to research Mr. Smith further.
Regarding the numbers stamped on the blades, these may be parts numbers used by the companies that actually made the swords. I do not think they are serial numbers or indicative of dates of manufacture.
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Post by tareece on Apr 27, 2008 0:22:17 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2008 0:47:34 GMT
By description I meant an account of the various markings and features of the sword. The photos are very nice and will do just fine. The sword appears to be a Knights Templar sword. IIRC, the modern Knights Templar are a branch of the Freemasons. I am sure you could find more online on this fraternal order/secret society.
To research George Smith you may want to contact Philadelphia area masonic lodges. I am not sure what information they would have or if they would give any out, but it might be worth a try.
Hotspur may offer some more leads for info on the Knights Templar (again, the modern Knights Templar) and fraternal order research. We'll have to wait and see.
I am not sure what the evenly spaced marks are. I doubt there is any symbolism attached to them since such symbols would already be etched on the blade. I think that the marks are accidental.
Are these family swords or swords that you have purchased for study?
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Post by tareece on Apr 27, 2008 0:58:52 GMT
hey, thanks for the reply...I constantly continued to edit the reply, so there are more photos available if you refresh perhaps.
The evenly spaced marks almost look like, egad, marks from a vise.
The swords were available at a (I think) a consignment auction house. I do not know the history of whether or not these were together or came seperately.
I've just been fascinated by swords. Pieces of history.
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Post by tareece on Apr 27, 2008 1:04:04 GMT
I was MODIFING my post and this was lost...Luckkily I pressed my back button til I could get to this and bring it here...Wasn't trying to be rude...LOL ... as far as description, it is a intricate sword. Lots of detail. Dark with patina. Cracked/broken ivory handle because (IMO) someone tried to hammer down the loose helmet pommel. Rust damage now inside hilt and to blade proper.
Now as far as etchings, scabbard is detailed with Templar traditional items, Crown with Cross, and the "Faithful unto Death..." scripture... The cross hilt is slightly different than others I have seen, although I did see one on another site that was like it... No color, or not much showing, I do see tinges of it under the patina. should I clean it with delicate - mild dishwater soap? Should I also remove pommel/handle and sand the rust down and stop that deteriation? Thanks for the advise and help  |
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Post by tareece on Apr 27, 2008 1:15:25 GMT
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Post by hotspur on Apr 27, 2008 2:15:37 GMT
I'm on strike
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2008 2:20:54 GMT
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Post by tareece on Apr 27, 2008 17:06:00 GMT
Story of my hobbyist life......  When you come off strike, I take dibs on your first "to-do" to do.... Well, as they say onwards and upwards... |
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Post by hotspur on Apr 27, 2008 17:42:01 GMT
I'm more teasing Jonathan that being unresponsive. In real truth, I don't have a great deal more to add. Knights Templar Masonic swords are quite common and the things that can be researched are the makers and named individuals. I will take a look at the pictures today and see if there are more clues that might be helpful in dating it.
Long story short and as to why I may have seemed curt. Last Sunday I was asked to vacate my residence of ten years. Last Monday I moved a load of swords (a couple of dozen), my seven working guitars, a canoe, a good size refractor telescope and a pop up canopy to a neighboring state. Staging a second load on Thursday(amplifiers and other electronics) I am approached by the powers that be and asked if I can rethink moving and remain indefinitely. Oh, ok, nevermind. I'm glad I only did a few changes of address (now needing to be redone again) Yesterday was spent retrieving the first load and I had little attention or energy afterwards to lend in this.
I would add that fraternal groups were/are not so much secret societies as societies with secrets.
Cheers
Hotspur; more as I find time and after I study the photos
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Post by hotspur on Apr 27, 2008 18:16:59 GMT
First, may we disassociate the two swords?
who was this Mr. Smith, who was issued the naval #53.
vs
It was never engraved with a name thus maybe never awarded
Second, the KT sword is unusual in a couple of respects but I would still date it to probably the third quarter of the 19th century. Why? The application of the cross to the grip, absence of a monogram on the grip, a plated blade and brass scabbard. In all honesty, you may have a pre ACW sword that was updated after the war.
Are you certain the grip is ivory and not celluoid or bone? How are you certain? I have a strong hunch this is a German made sword.
Something I don't see in the pictures is a lodge or encampment number. From your description, I don't think it to be the 2 mentioned but I don't recall seeing it in your pictures.
Masonic lodges are great record keepers but even their secretaries and archivists are going to be pretty lost without a lodge or encampment number. This was sometimes etched on the blades but more often marked on the cross or grip.
I wouldn't go wild with cleaning it and certainly do not attempt to remove the grip and pommel.
Maybe I'm missing something here but how the swords came to be in your possesion and any previous history you know of them from the previous owner are clues as well that can't be addressed unless shared.
Cheers
Hotspur; really, only so much can be said without the piece in hand. Have we seen both sides of the grip and guard? I forget
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Post by tareece on Apr 27, 2008 18:23:57 GMT
I'm more teasing Jonathan that being unresponsive. In real truth, I don't have a great deal more to add. Knights Templar Masonic swords are quite common and the things that can be researched are the makers and named individuals. I will take a look at the pictures today and see if there are more clues that might be helpful in dating it. Long story short and as to why I may have seemed curt. Last Sunday I was asked to vacate my residence of ten years. Last Monday I moved a load of swords (a couple of dozen), my seven working guitars, a canoe, a good size refractor telescope and a pop up canopy to a neighboring state. Staging a second load on Thursday(amplifiers and other electronics) I am approached by the powers that be and asked if I can rethink moving and remain indefinitely. Oh, ok, nevermind. I'm glad I only did a few changes of address (now needing to be redone again) Yesterday was spent retrieving the first load and I had little attention or energy afterwards to lend in this. I would add that fraternal groups were/are not so much secret societies as societies with secrets. Cheers Hotspur; more as I find time and after I study the photosLOL...Well, that must have been a frazzling process. You deserve a long weekend of minimal effort. I appreciate that the Society Order swords are rather common. What made these two swords practically irresistible was surrounding circumstances of the auction and the fact I was the only bidder on either. I got them for a song ($90 total), and honestly, probably the low investment is the only way I would get into the sword hobby unfortunately. |
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Post by tareece on Apr 27, 2008 18:38:52 GMT
Wow...Yes, by all means....
I offer my myspace address to allow you to look at the pics without the constant untraceable url links.
myspace.com/tareece001
I appreciate ALL of your help.
I have never laid my hands on a Templar sword, so honestly, I do not know whether it is bone, or ivory.
I noticed the Germanic crosses much like the crosses used more popularily recalled on WW1 aircraft and uniforms. I understand that they used that emblem before as well, as it has IIRC Bavarian/Austrian roots.
As far as encampment numbers, I photographed the only numeral I found. The "2". It is on two scabbard parts. There could be others I am missing only because I am unfamilar with the locations of them and quite honestly, overall lack of knowledge of sword collecting period. I'll be investing in books over the next week for sure.
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Post by tareece on Apr 27, 2008 18:53:06 GMT
Well, I came to have these when I visited one of my brothers in the mountains of NC. We went to a auction, (I believe this was a consignment auction house, of perhaps not only of estate customers but also people who wanted to sell stuff as well).. My brother was there to gather up some tool values, I went to get whatever I liked. I saw these and decided I'd give them atleast an opening bid try.
The swords were not hyped at all, matter-of-fact, the auctioneers probably didn't really know what they had to offer (not unusual). The '82 was merely stated as a Naval sword. The m1852 opened at $100, no bid, and I held out til it dropped to $50. I bid, and noone upped it. As far as the Templar, they only mentioned that it was a "Fraternal Sword" and started it at $70...It dropped to $40 and thats where I won it at.
I did not think to inquire about the family whereabouts or history from the auction house.
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Post by hotspur on Apr 27, 2008 19:26:17 GMT
Thanks for the better detailed provenance. Due to those circumstances, there is no reason to associate the swords as coming from the same source to the auction house itself. All in, you did well on pricing. The naval swords are even more bushel load than this particular KT sword but generally bring a little more than the fraternal swords, being a bona fide military pattern. Not really any more thought right now but I'll try to find a little more time to speculate on it. I have been mentioning the conservation article on this page in a few threads now and it would be the place to start if you plan on doing any work on the sword itself swordforum.comI've got three running conversations going on at the moment so all I can say is "stay tuned" and poke around on research as you are able too. You could start with stuff like Masons in North Carolina and the growth of the fratenity in America in general. Here is a fun page. there is a wealth of information there but not much that will speak to the sword itself. www.phoenixmasonry.org/masonicmuseum/fraternalism/chronology_fraternal_organizations_america.htmCheers Hotspur; Pennsylvania and North Carolina aren't exactly easily connected as to how the sword ended up where it did except that Philadelphia was a large source for supply of such sundries |
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Post by tareece on Apr 27, 2008 21:49:31 GMT
Well, geneatical (sp) research has revealed a couple of things that may have something to do with how it got here.
Mainly, there has always been a 'highway' of immigrants coming from Penn to NC. My family, for one, did that, the Moravian church (a Germanic Christian sect who exalt Martin Luther's sacrifice) also came here from Penn.
Put into those contexts, it is pretty understandable how the sword migrated from Pennsylvania to North Carolina.
Thanks for the updates, the advise and the links.
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