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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Aug 13, 2015 18:28:30 GMT
First thing to decide on is your budget. You need a ballpark, then you can chose a fitting maker. Custom makers just as production makers cater to different budget groups. The makers suggested here range from solid and affordable work to very high end pricey stuff.
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Post by zabazagobo on Aug 13, 2015 21:44:31 GMT
Perhaps Huawei is the way to go then (or if there is an individual here on the boards that can do it?). I actually submitted this design to Jkoo to get an idea of what something like this would cost, and got a reply today that they are unable to make it for me. Sad times. As far as what that cutout is, it's probably best described as an ornamental choil. Normal choils are typically found on much shorter blade like knives, and can sometimes be used as finger grooves for a better grip or more precise cutting. Though, just as many are non-functional and only exist for looks. The other purpose is to allow you to sharpen a blade all the way to the very edge without bumping into/scratching the handle (or in my case, the habaki). For my sword, as it currently stands, it would be purely decorative...though I suppose I could tweak the design a bit so to give me the the benefit of easier sharpening of the entire blade. There wouldn't be much use for a choil on an already long-handeled/short-bladed ko-katana as leverage nor size should be an issue...not to mention your tsuba would get in the way unless it was very small. Plus, it just seems dangerous to put your finger there when it comes to weapons that are swung around! Interesting, so mostly for aesthetics then. I'm not sure that the choil would make sharpening easier, I disassemble the katana when I sharpen mine (which is surprisingly easy to do) so the tsuba and habaki wouldn't get in the way, although then again it could give you something to hold onto while polishing/sharpening, so it could definitely have a pragmatic utility. Interesting idea. I'd also second what everyone else has said on this thread that you may have better luck looking at a custom smith that specializes in custom projects rather than production swords. |
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Post by munk on Aug 14, 2015 2:11:36 GMT
I've found a thread over at SFI that had a rather large list of dealers, smiths, and etc. and went through them all. 20% were dead links, 20% were dealers, and maybe 50% were medieval/renaissance-style sword makers. Of the remaining ~10%, most seemed to be quite a bit out of my budget (i.e. $3,000 - $15,000). I did find maybe 2 or 3 that might work, but honestly the whole ordeal was sort of disheartening. Just with the names/links given in this thread, I've had more success here than several hours of researching over at SFI (not to mention my PMs have all gone unanswered over there). Anyway, here is some more information about what I had in mind, with the understanding that I don't have everything pinned down (I'm learning as I go): Budget$500 - $1000 PurposeBeing completely honest with myself, mostly backyard cutting and "just to have". That being said, I'd like it to be built for regular light-to-medium cutting for peace of mind. I know I won't be as happy with it if I see it as being too fragile for me to use when I get the urge. Additionally, having no formal training, it should probably be built tougher than it needs to be to withstand the occasional bad cut. This is why you'll see a couple of spring steels listed in my "possible metal types" category -- can't see myself doing anything worse than what was done to those poor Chesness's! On the flip side, sharpness is very important to me. Given that, in all likelihood, this sword will be used fairly lightly, I'd like a razor edge on it ( hair-whittling so if possible) so long as it doesn't come at the price of a super delicate/chippy edge. Sounds like a paradox, I know, but a person by the name of Cliff Stamp over at BladeForums has some very interesting things to say that make me think it's doable...though I might have to take that on myself after the sword is made. Overarching ConceptAn elegantly minimal ko-katana with just a few small accents here and there. It should be well-balanced, light, fast, and lively in the hand. I'd like the POB to be fairly close to the tsuba (serious bonus points if you can make it where the choil is!). NagasaSteel: Open to recommendations, but a few options I'm intrigued in are T10, 9260, and 5160. Length: ~22" Profile: No idea, to be honest. Part of me thinks a hira zukuri is the way to go for optimal cutting ability, while another part of me thinks a normal shinogi zukuri (w/niko) would be the better choice as it would be more forgiving in terms of durability and effective cutting angle. And as far as the exact geometry of the blade, I don't know enough to really speak to that. Construction: Mono Bohi: None Hamon: Notare if DH, none if mono-tempered Kissaki: Ko-kissaki Yokote: Geometric Other: Choil as shown in the diagram TsukaLength: ~11" Ito: Black silk Samewaga: Black (probably panel to keep cost low) Tsukamaki: Katate-maki style, alternating laces, and preferably with hishigami FittingsTsuba: Plain/minimal hamidashi (small tsuba, almost flush with saya) made of blackened iron/steel Fuchi/Kashira: Same as tsuba, plain/smooth blackened iron or steel, however it would be nice to have some brass fittings for the makidome Menuki: I have my own brass menuki I'd be suppling Habaki: Plain brass Seppa: Plain brass Other: The blade-hole in the tsuba, habaki, fuchi(?), and seppa would need to be rectangular instead of triangle-shaped, given the choil/ricasso area would be unbeveled, which is not typical of a Japanese-style sword or their fittings. SayaFinish: Simple, gloss black lacquered wood Sageo: Black Koiguchi, Kurigata & Kojir: Same as saya? But like the brass makidome on the kashira, it'd be nice to have matching brass shitodome fittings for the kurigata As a side note, I'm a full-time graphic designer so I could probably whip up images to clarify points of uncertainty. I have a co-worker who can do 3D modeling as well, though I'm not sure how much help he'd be unless I could give him every dimension and angle...which would require I know such things, unfortunately. |
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Aug 14, 2015 7:15:24 GMT
I think you need to look for a custom maker that has a serious background in japanese blades. To my knowledge none of the makers suggested here do. Things like geometric yokote, tsuka with all accessories and saya are things exclusive to japanese blades and in order to properly do, require having done them before. I suggest you contact Huawai.
One possible option would be having the blade made by one guy and the rest by another (for the hilt work and saya, Josh Marlan of Cottontail Customs comes to mind). Still, this leaves the problem of traditional japanese blade geometry. Makers doing mainly other things won't be able to satisfy your needs there (I know I probably couldn't).
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Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Aug 14, 2015 8:43:16 GMT
Still think we have people on here if they set their mind to it can do it properly the blade at least.
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Aug 14, 2015 10:35:47 GMT
Maybe. I would go with a maker who has shown he can produce traditional japanese blade geometry if that is what I'm after. munk: Do you need a habaki? I think if you're persisting on that choil, it would look a lot better if you dropped the habaki. Just looks weird to my eye, a modern feature (the choil) following right after a traditional habaki. I'd say either lose the choil and have a traditionally constructed ko-katana or lose the habaki, making the blade more modern/tactical looking (if you don't persist on a geometric yokote, you would have a lot less difficulty finding a maker, too). You could still have a traditional handle construction though I would suggest some modernized accents (maybe titanium for the tsuba or kashira?) The menuki could also have a modern touch. Check out BRT blade works for some modern, japanese-inspired blades: www.brtbladeworks.com/gallery.html (takes a while to load, at least for me) |
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Post by munk on Aug 15, 2015 0:48:42 GMT
chenessfan,
Thank you for the input, and that website has some cool looking stuff. In all honesty, I'm actually digging the combination of traditional and modern, but I also know there are different ways of achieving that blend (some that may not necessitate all of the odds-and-ends of a traditional katana, but perhaps just a few key elements). I'll have to make a few mockups in Photohop to get an idea of what components I feel I need and which ones I can do without.
I'm starting to realize that the 'devil in the details' of this design are the fittings, and not necessarily the blade itself. When I started the design process, I basically looked at the components of a normal katana and tried to determine what needed to be done to them to make them work with this unusual blade...but I suppose I didn't fully explore the idea of which components I actually needed. I just sort of assumed I needed them all in order to have a complete sword.
I am also wondering if having the blade and fittings made separately might be a good idea, that way I can find people (or companies) who specialize in each. After all, like what has been said, some people may be experts in fittings (and may even be able to do the custom work needed) but wouldn't know how to craft that kind of blade, and vice versa. In fact, I was turned down from JKOO because of the fittings and the work it would require. I wonder if Hauwei would do the same, but if I only asked for the blade...who knows?
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Post by munk on Aug 15, 2015 23:01:52 GMT
Here is a rough mockup of what we talked about so far (w/ the custom menuki idea I had from this thread). Not too shabby, though I might make another higher-res version to see the details better (plus remove the stand to get a better look at the overall shape of the blade). Attachments:
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Post by Derzis on Aug 15, 2015 23:45:08 GMT
Still think we have people on here if they set their mind to it can do it properly the blade at least. I really would like to believe this, but I still think that a blade is not just the steel per se, but all the little details regarding its geometry that will alter or not the handling. As Howard Clark said : The first katana (several, actually) that I made were not all that well shaped, nicely balanced, or beautiful. All that comes with practice, practice, practice. Want to be good at anything, do it a lot. Sorry, I hope I did not touched a feeling here.
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Post by Derzis on Aug 16, 2015 0:48:01 GMT
Here is a rough mockup of what we talked about so far (w/ the custom menuki idea I had from this thread). Not too shabby, though I might make another higher-res version to see the details better (plus remove the stand to get a better look at the overall shape of the blade). Looks nice. No habaki then?
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Post by munk on Aug 16, 2015 3:00:42 GMT
After seeing the first mock up, I thought to myself "Yeah, that's looks pretty good. Who needs a stupid habaki anyway?!" but to be sure I made a new mock up with a habaki and, well, I think I want one again  I know it's not necessary, but it feels like an important element to the design. It's almost like it puts the blade on a pedestal or something. Attachments:
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Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Aug 16, 2015 6:34:50 GMT
You know the fantasy sword he is wanting make is so much different form a japanese katana it's going to balance different too. the tang area is gong to be square and the choil. Don't think you will get a katana smith to take this on. It is a mix between western and japanese. So there are plenty of people on here that can take it on.
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Aug 16, 2015 7:24:22 GMT
I maintain my point that that the geometric yokote would be a big problem for those who have never done it... I don't even know what that really looks like close up or feels like, having only seen pics. I would have to closely study a katana with such a feature to even attempt replicating it. And I dare say it would be that way for most (if not all) makers without back ground in japanese blades.
Not to mention if he wants a DH blade with a suguha hamon as pictured.
The balance I see as less of an issue.
I still think choil and habaki looks off but taste is all personal of course. Maybe you could post a mock-up without that habaki for us to take a look at?
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Post by munk on Aug 16, 2015 13:22:12 GMT
Chenessfan - Sure (attached) LDriggers - I wouldn't have guessed that having a small choil/ricasso area on an otherwise "normal" katana blade would make such a big difference, but perhaps you're right (I'm not a smith so I can't really speak to it). But on the other side of the coin, there's the issue of making the rest of the blade according to a traditional katana, which may call for a smith who's done that many times before. Attachments:
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Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Aug 16, 2015 13:45:52 GMT
There are folks here that can make this blade and the suguha hamon. And there is at least one person here that can make the Japanese sword mountings. I just wanted to point that out. ... and obviously there are many folks on other forums that can do it too. For example, my first attempt: A katana cut in half, reground to remove the excess niku, slight tapper added, reground the mune, converted the geometry from shinogi-zukuri to unokubi-zukuri, and a new 3.5" kissaki ground:  Front half of a katana, reground again to remove excess niku, added tapper, converted the geometry from shinogi-zukuri to unokubi-zukuri, and a new 3.25" kissaki ground:  It was my first time doing something like this. Here is the complete thread: sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/43096/digs-damascus-tanto-completed-heavyI would recommend 1075 from Aldo and my heat treater (Peters Heat Treating) can make the hamon. I know I can't do the mountings... not yet at least. . |
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Post by munk on Aug 16, 2015 14:00:30 GMT
Digs - nice work! For a second, I thought that first pic was showing a ricasso at the base of the blade, which would have been very similar to what I'm looking to do.
I wish I knew more about mountings. I'll be 3D printing the menuki, but if I had more knowledge about how the other mountings fit on the sword (such as a habaki), I could probably just draft something up and have it 3D printed as well. All I would need is the finished blade for measurements. I might even be able to do the double-layered brass/black steel habaki as shown in my earlier post, which I personally think is a little better looking than the all brass version.
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Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Aug 16, 2015 14:21:50 GMT
Thank you very much munk.
BTW: What inspired the finger choil in front of the habaki? Have you seen a blade like this have one? If you place your pointer finger in the choil then does the middle finger wrap around the habaki? And is that comfortable?
The habaki: Note that your habaki is not a traditional one. Your hakabi is the same thickness at the mune and ha, where as a traditional one is much much thicker at the mune. And as shown it wraps over the blade so it's very easy to design for 3D printing.
And how are those pics of your concept blade made?
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Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Aug 16, 2015 16:33:38 GMT
If the choil is what you want I have no problem with it. It will just be the people who keep saying traditional japanese blade you have to have a traditional smith to do it. Like I said we do have people here that can do it. It might not be by forging, but it doesn't matter a stock removeable blade is just as good.
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Post by munk on Aug 16, 2015 19:02:31 GMT
Thank you very much munk. BTW: What inspired the finger choil in front of the habaki? Have you seen a blade like this have one? If you place your pointer finger in the choil then does the middle finger wrap around the habaki? And is that comfortable? The habaki: Note that your habaki is not a traditional one. Your hakabi is the same thickness at the mune and ha, where as a traditional one is much much thicker at the mune. And as shown it wraps over the blade so it's very easy to design for 3D printing. And how are those pics of your concept blade made? Well I'm a graphic designer by trade, so I make these mockups in Photoshop. In this example, I started with a Google image of a sword that already had some of the characteristics I wanted (black same, no bo-hi, ko-kisake, etc.) and then modified it to fit the concept. Not to say I couldn't add/remove those characteristics if I needed to, but it just makes it simpler to start with a sword that has the right "bones". The big things I did were taking 3" off the handle and 6" off the blade length, make a full-sized tsuba a hamidashi, adding the menuki, and changing the background. Certain elements like the choil had to be hand-painted b/c I couldn't find a usable image of one (right size, right curvature, right perspective, etc.). Then there are hundreds of little things that went into it to make it as seamless and realistic as I could. As for the choil, I wouldn't actually be using the one on my blade (not only for the reasons you've stated, but also because I don't see much of an advantage in doing so, even if I were to forgo the tsuba). Normally choils are used for knives to help get a better grip and improve precision detail/cutting. Swords are used differently, however, and so I don't believe it'll help in that regard unless you're just trying to choke up on your grip. But with my design, a 22" blade and 11" tuksa, there wouldn't be a need to choke up beyond the handle...it's already so long. If you were to use the choil as a choil with my design, you'd basically be putting your index finger right on the point-of-balance. In any case, here are some examples of swords with choils: The Kodiac  (starting with the smallest) SwampRat Rucki, SwampRat Waki, and Scrapyard Scrapizashi (lol that name)  Busse AK47 and Rucki  |
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Post by munk on Aug 16, 2015 19:08:51 GMT
If the choil is what you want I have no problem with it. It will just be the people who keep saying traditional japanese blade you have to have a traditional smith to do it. Like I said we do have people here that can do it. It might not be by forging, but it doesn't matter a stock removeable blade is just as good. Yeah, I'm more concerned with the quality of the end product than it having to be forged or anything. If the steel is good and the heat treating is good, the blade can be cut on a CNC machine for all I care. I even wouldn't mind like a G10 handle underneath the ito instead of wood, if that's easier to do. The construction can differ from a traditional katana, so long as it's made from good materials, is durable, functions like it should, and looks like the mockup. |
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I know it's not necessary, but it feels like an important element to the design. It's almost like it puts the blade on a pedestal or something.
