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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jun 7, 2015 9:50:36 GMT
Sure, looks like a Luristan bronze sword. Also - especially the grind marks - looks like a modern fake Luristan bronze sword.
Provenance or analysis of the alloy will tell whether it's more likely fake or original.
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Post by Anuan on Jun 7, 2015 11:31:45 GMT
There are ways to create a patina, especially on bronze. Clear grindmarks generally wouldn't be so obvious if it was genuine bronze-age for several reasons such as deterioration.
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Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Jun 7, 2015 12:46:03 GMT
May I ask who is selling the sword, or who took those pictures? Can you give us some background on the seller.
If it's a seller on eBay then it's a safe bet it's fake. If it's sold from Asia and ebay then just forget about it.
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Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Jun 7, 2015 13:49:32 GMT
The assumption I'm making is that if the sword is being sold on ebay and from say China/Pakistan/India then there is a high probability that it's fake based on experiences from many people on various forums.
Can you provide us a link to the source of the photos?
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Jun 7, 2015 14:03:40 GMT
It is a fake. The thin incrustation and the blue splashes indicate Copper carbonate solution was used.
There are no layers and there is no Cupriet. Real incrustation is always in layers and of a crystaline nature.
Blue on a good find is formed when there is Sulphur in the ground, but again it should be of a crystaline nature, not like it is here.
There is a good La Tene sword on Ebay. Last time I saw it the asking price was $45000. Not every artefact on Ebay is fake, but you better be pretty sure of your business. Bye the way, the only incrustation of a non crystaline form is bronze rot. A powdery substance of salts that needs moisture from the air to do its work. Sometimes it is on top, sometimes it sits under the patina. If you see it on bronze it is an indication of it being good, but as it eats away very rapidly, the incrustation can be the only thing you buy. The bronze under it will have great big holes. Dipping rot with siver nitrate solution is the only way to get rid of it. Once it gets airborn, like when you brush it away in the same room as other, clean, bronzes your entire bronze collection may be infected.
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Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Jun 7, 2015 14:03:45 GMT
What language is that so I can translate the page with Google?
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Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Jun 7, 2015 14:09:56 GMT
It is a fake. The thin incrustation and the blue splashes indicate Copper carbonate solution was used. There are no layers and there is no Cupriet. Real incrustation is always in layers and of a crystaline nature. Blue on a good find is formed when there is Sulphur in the ground, but again it should be of a crystaline nature, not like it is here. Thank you for this info. BTW: Google translate is not working for me (it's in Russian I guess). If I'm reading it right 16 people bit on it and it sold for 3,200 USD. Too bad they are not SBG forum members ;) |
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Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Jun 7, 2015 14:33:58 GMT
I'm not sure what you are asking. Slight language barrier I think.
I'm not claiming anything, other than "too bad they are not SBG forum members".
If someone wanted this and has the money to piss away then they they did not pay dearly for it. I do not know enough to estimate the market value of such an item, and I do not know how "precious" owning something like this is for the buyer. Two different things. But if it is fake then the buyer paid too much. I will claim that as well.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Jun 7, 2015 14:38:46 GMT
Some shots I made for you so you can compair. Not every bronze will look just like this one, but overall it gives a good impression of what it should look like. Chinese do red on top so to show you there is Cupriet. Happens that in most cases Cupriet is the first to form, So it most always sits under the green so you cannot see it, or has green on top of it. Pathera.    |
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Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
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Post by Uhlan on Jun 7, 2015 14:53:33 GMT
It is a fake. The thin incrustation and the blue splashes indicate Copper carbonate solution was used. There are no layers and there is no Cupriet. Real incrustation is always in layers and of a crystaline nature. Blue on a good find is formed when there is Sulphur in the ground, but again it should be of a crystaline nature, not like it is here. There is a good La Tene sword on Ebay. Last time I saw it the asking price was $45000. Not every artefact on Ebay is fake, but you better be pretty sure of your business. Bye the way, the only incrustation of a non crystaline form is bronze rot. A powdery substance of salts that needs moisture from the air to do its work. Sometimes it is on top, sometimes it sits under the patina. If you see it on bronze it is an indication of it being good, but as it eats away very rapidly, the incrustation can be the only thing you buy. The bronze under it will have great big holes. Dipping rot with siver nitrate solution is the only way to get rid of it. Once it gets airborn, like when you brush it away in the same room as other, clean, bronzes your entire bronze collection may be infected. I want to disappoint you, the structure of the patina depends on the soil in which the subject is, and no-crystal patina always happens, for example, in the swampy soil just do not have the patina No, the COLOUR depends on the soil, cq the minerals. The structure is always in layers and will always be of a crystaline nature. Loupe any patina and you will see. Swamp, bog, are very acid and under water other things happen. That does not mean that in 95% of the finds you will not see the standard incrustation. You do not disapoint me at all. Been in this business for over 35 years, that's all. |
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Jun 7, 2015 15:12:42 GMT
Interesting. Could you show us the object?
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Post by senja15 on Jun 7, 2015 15:22:15 GMT
Interesting. Could you show us the object? you want to see more photos of this sword? |
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Jun 7, 2015 15:50:16 GMT
I am getting confused here. Are you still talking about the sword you showed at the beginning of the thread or are you talking about another one?
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Post by senja15 on Jun 7, 2015 15:52:53 GMT
I am getting confused here. Are you still talking about the sword you showed at the beginning of the thread or are you talking about another one? we are talking about the sword that is depicted in the beginning of the topic |
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Jun 7, 2015 16:34:01 GMT
Okay. Did you buy it or do you want advise before you buy?
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jun 7, 2015 20:01:12 GMT
Sure, looks like a Luristan bronze sword. Also - especially the grind marks - looks like a modern fake Luristan bronze sword. Provenance or analysis of the alloy will tell whether it's more likely fake or original. a specific analysis of the alloy must be carried out to confirm the authenticity of the sword? No. Reliable provenance will do. on what grounds Bi saying that? to be a fake? patina on the surface is good enough. I've seen similar patina on Chinese brass fakes. Modern-made, not even the correct alloy, and similar patina. Patina is easy to fake. As I wrote, the grind marks are suspicious. A bronze sword of the time was an expensive upper-class item. Poor workmanship doesn't belong; compare this with the quality of the metalwork on genuine bronze swords of the time. Plenty of fake Luristan bronzes out there. Without reliable provenance, always suspect the possibility. |
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Post by senja15 on Jun 7, 2015 20:51:07 GMT
a specific analysis of the alloy must be carried out to confirm the authenticity of the sword? No. Reliable provenance will do. on what grounds Bi saying that? to be a fake? patina on the surface is good enough. I've seen similar patina on Chinese brass fakes. Modern-made, not even the correct alloy, and similar patina. Patina is easy to fake. As I wrote, the grind marks are suspicious. A bronze sword of the time was an expensive upper-class item. Poor workmanship doesn't belong; compare this with the quality of the metalwork on genuine bronze swords of the time. Plenty of fake Luristan bronzes out there. Without reliable provenance, always suspect the possibility. who knows how to get these notches on the handle, maybe the owners decided to grind the ancient handle for themselves how the abrasive stone, as it was his trophy and did not fit his hand. as I wrote earlier, a man who for more than 2000 ebey review determined that the sword of Lorestan 6th century BC or looking at the markings on the handle |
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jun 7, 2015 21:33:38 GMT
If you know it's genuine, why are you asking what it is? It looks like a Luristan sword, the seller has told you it's a Luristan sword, and you know it's genuine, so what is it you want to find out?
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Post by senja15 on Jun 8, 2015 3:29:55 GMT
If you know it's genuine, why are you asking what it is? It looks like a Luristan sword, the seller has told you it's a Luristan sword, and you know it's genuine, so what is it you want to find out? The seller did not know that this sword of Lorestan, the writing of forum threads, I myself thought that the sword of Lorestan. For this, I addressed a question to the other seller on the ebey who sold a similar sword, he confirmed to me that it Lorestan 600 BC |
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Post by Svadilfari on Jun 9, 2015 11:40:14 GMT
From what I've read over time..almost 95% or more of the so-called "Luristan Bronzes" are modern day fakes. Unless one comes with indisputable , written proof that it was professionally excavated at such and such a site, it should be approached with the utmost caution. As an "example" of the style of weapons, it may be OK, IF the price is right. But you shouldn't be paying genuine antique prices for what is a modern day fake.
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