|
Post by Gunnar Wolfgard on Apr 19, 2015 15:18:46 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Rifleman Lizard on Apr 19, 2015 15:30:33 GMT
Tozando mostly deal in attire and aluminium iaito over steel shinken. I've been to their tiny store in Kyoto and everything they sell is of the quality you'd expect. Useless for cutting however. ;)
|
|
|
Post by Gunnar Wolfgard on Apr 19, 2015 15:46:33 GMT
Oh yeah, I just found the part about zinc- aluminum blades. In other words expensive wall hangers. Should have known it was too good to be true.
|
|
|
Post by Rifleman Lizard on Apr 19, 2015 15:53:21 GMT
They're great for practitioners but otherwise they serve as corner fillers and costume pieces. Definitely worth the money if you're into kenjutsu though.
|
|
|
Post by LG Martial Arts on Apr 19, 2015 16:03:32 GMT
Definitely worth the money for Iaido, but since they're not made of HC steel, not meant for anything other than kata.
|
|
|
Post by JH Lee on Apr 19, 2015 22:46:22 GMT
Tozando has a page where you can get quotes on custom shinsakuto: www.tozandoshop.com/Articles.asp?ID=139There are also other sites that specialize in shinsakuto: www.embu-shinken.comwww.budogu.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=MB11setc. The latter two may be better option for most (than Tozando) since they let you pay in installments. Also, the operators are US-based and speak English. However, I know for a fact that Kawahara sensei (in the Mugendo Budogu link) does not use the internet himself to communicate with any patrons and most of the communication must be relayed via snail mail (after translation). Folks at Mugendo will facilitate the communication for you, but be prepared for long wait times for replies. Anyway, the most important variable is your budget. There are iaido-grade shinsakuto for around $4K and up if you know where to look. Usually, the ones around or below $4K are used/refurbished and in mediocre/"user" polish (though still light years better than an acid etch). But they go fast for obvious reasons. Anything worth keeping/treasuring will set you back quite a bit if you custom order new. On average, you are looking at around $10K~20K+ for a new, custom made shinsakuto. Slightly more "affordable" would be Kodaira Kokaji at Usagiya (which www.Embu-Shinken.com also represents abroad). Most people still know him/his work as "Keiun Naohiro" but he has since retired from the title (though still making swords) because he has named a new successor among his apprentices for the Naohiro lineage. The deeper your pockets, the more your options. The 9th gen Nobufusa, for example, has many blades up that are new... but they are generally around $38K ~ $40K+ (more than what I paid for my car). www.hokkesaburo.com/There is a whole world of shinsakuto options out there... I think it's more interesting (personally) than the antiques over at Aoi and Sanmei, etc
|
|
admin
Site Admin
Posts: 2,088
|
Post by admin on Apr 20, 2015 9:44:55 GMT
If you ever vist their shop - go upstairs, I was there with Chris from Ronin 2 weeks ago..
Upstairs they have Shinken - some really nice ones too.
Chris took a ton of photos, I just snapped some with my iphone but here's an example of what they have upstairs.
Most of these are antiques - and priced accordingly.
We went to quite a few stores in the Kansai area - some are foreigner friendly, others only ok if you speak Japanese and act appropriately..
|
|
admin
Site Admin
Posts: 2,088
|
Post by admin on Apr 20, 2015 9:53:27 GMT
By the way, Japanese made iaito are pretty awesome. They are not by any means wall hangers..
Fit and finish is pretty much perfect - handling is amazing. They are traing swords - but don't underestimate them. The tip in particular could do some serious damage (not rebated - they are extremely pointy and quite deadly).
But yeah - Japan cannot legally make production Katana. I have seen some BS sites recently claiming made in Japan for $999.. Total scam - actually saw swords stamped "made in Seki city Japan" when I was in China..! Nasty stuff..
Unlike Tozando - really nice people, totally on the level and highly recommended to deal with!
|
|
|
Post by Gunnar Wolfgard on Apr 20, 2015 13:41:21 GMT
HEY,,,, do I get any points for coming up with a post that brings Paul out to play with us again? Is this thing about Japan not being able to make Katanas have to due with the WWII treaty where Japan can't make weapons of war? That's silly, who's going to start a war using Katanas these days. I know they do make some but if they were allowed to make more it may bring the price down to where we all could afford to own a real Japanese made Japanese Katana. It doesn't surprise me that fake Japanese made swords are being made, we live in a buyer beware world. I see it in the antique diving helmets that I collect.
|
|
|
Post by JH Lee on Apr 20, 2015 14:10:10 GMT
Gunnar, yes-- there are laws that distinguish between what is a lethal weapon and what is an object of traditional art/cultural significance. Japanese smiths are also limited by the same set of laws to making only a few swords per calendar month, which artificially inflates their price (though arguably it keeps the quality very high). It's not uncommon for the newly minted smiths to struggle to make a living, well below the poverty line. Logically, I think the distinction is ridiculous. I'm sure we could both name about 50 things off the top of our heads from the local hardware store that could be quite lethal. At the same time, I can't argue against the fact that the limitation in number encourages them to maintain a high level of quality. I don't mind production swords as long as they are "honest" about what they are; and they aren't hard to tell apart from the real deal... at least for now. I think the real problem starts happening when the production replicas start becoming outright forgeries that infringe on the good name and reputation of the real Japanese smiths who are themselves struggling to make a living while keeping the art alive, which is both unethical and also ILLEGAL. From an interview with Fukudome Fusayuki: www.embu-shinken.com/fukudome-fusayuki.htmlTraditional sword-making is a composite art," he explains, "and it requires the collaboration of numerous specialists and craftsmen: the smith himself, the togi-shi (polisher), saya-shi (maker of scabbard and handle), tsukamaki-shi (the one who wraps the handle), and so-on." He goes on to elaborate on the roles of the shirogane-shi, nu-shi, makie-shi, kinko-shi, etc., before acknowledging the importance of "the engineers" that make all of this work possible. Everyone from the miners who produce the polishing "water stones" to the lacquer maker, the producers of traditional cloths and dyes, the producers of the charcoal necessary for sword-forging...It's like a domino effect.... When the traditional Japanese sword market suffers, then so do all of the other craftsmen who keep the ancient arts alive. I don't have the brains or the deep pockets to offer any good solution to this conundrum... just enough awareness to feel crappy about it.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2015 17:03:13 GMT
I have a Katsumoto Dragon sharpened 1065 steel katana that are sold by SOTE. It is made in Seki City, Japan. Cost just over $300. I know that most katanas exported by Seki City are toys made of zinc alloy, but I was surprised by this one, I was expecting it to be made in China when I purchased it.
|
|
admin
Site Admin
Posts: 2,088
|
Post by admin on Apr 20, 2015 17:27:38 GMT
Hi Nanyooko, can you post a link? How were they advertising it?
I hate to say it, but Japanese law makes what you describe impossible.. There are only 3 types of swords made in Japan, purely ornamental (zinc alloy blades), iaito (zinc alloy blades) or Shinken made by a handful of licensed smiths (minimum price tag, $4,500)..
Some of the Chinese forges will happily stamp made in Japan on their blades if requested to by an unscrupulous reseller..
Not saying that the sword is rubbish, but it's definitely not made in Japan.. :(
|
|
|
Post by chrisperoni on Apr 20, 2015 17:35:58 GMT
I have a Katsumoto Dragon sharpened 1065 steel katana that are sold by SOTE. It is made in Seki City, Japan. Cost just over $300. I know that most katanas exported by Seki City are toys made of zinc alloy, but I was surprised by this one, I was expecting it to be made in China when I purchased it. There's just no way the marking on the sword is true
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2015 17:57:25 GMT
Hello Paul. I just read your post above about the Chinese stamping some swords with Seki City on them. I guess my Katsumoto Dragon Katana must be one of them. If you do a search on this model, you'll see the sword pictured with the specifications and there is no reference to the maker. I understand that various makers in Seki can collectively use Seki City as their brand on their products and assumed such is the case with this sword. I am unable to post a link that can show the certificate that came with this sword.
|
|
admin
Site Admin
Posts: 2,088
|
Post by admin on Apr 20, 2015 18:10:17 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Gunnar Wolfgard on Apr 20, 2015 18:35:43 GMT
Nanyooko, if you have a scanner, scan the certificate and post it here by clicking on [ Add Attachment ]. It would be nice to expose these fakes so other members don't buy then thinking they're something they're not.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2015 22:54:28 GMT
Alright Paul and Wolfgard and all members. I don't have an attachment option here, so I made this YT video on the sword.
|
|
|
Post by Gunnar Wolfgard on Apr 20, 2015 23:27:24 GMT
Well I'll leave this one up to Paul, I can only read Rune not Japanese or Chinese.
|
|
Mikeeman
Member
Small Business Operator
Posts: 2,904
|
Post by Mikeeman on Apr 20, 2015 23:32:48 GMT
The geometry of the tang most definitely leads me to believe this is not a nihonto. If I'm not mistaken, the profile of the tang should mirror that of the blade.
|
|
|
Post by JH Lee on Apr 20, 2015 23:35:41 GMT
nanyooko, that is a mass-produced sword made in China. I know and have seen swords made by smiths from Seki. Even the lowest grade zinc-aluminum alloy iaito from Minosaka (based out of Seki; they supply all the major retailers like Yamato, Tozando, etc) is much better, even at a superficial glance. Sorry-- I don't mean to knock what you have, but I find the "Seki City" on the tang of your sword sickeningly dishonest and misleading. And the "certificate of authenticity" isn't worth the paper it's printed on, since no one collects them or cares enough to dispute their "authenticity." This isn't the only Chinese outfit that tries to recreate the NBTHK/NTHK papers (e.g. "Masahiro" etc), but I just really don't see the point except to mislead beginners into thinking they have something special.
Again, I hope what I'm saying isn't coming off as snobbery. I don't mind production swords as long as they remain true to what they are; affordable and ultimately disposable replicas of the real thing. Some are nicer than others, but no matter how dressed up, they will never be a true Japanese sword. Period.
|
|