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Post by mrbadexample on May 31, 2016 17:11:46 GMT
Danke Mr BE Was that due to the spine contacting or some other reason, do you think? Muscle memory, I think. I have shot for years (though sadly not much recently in my quarter acre lot...), and I have always shot with a three finger draw on a right handed bow. The position of the arm holding the bow changes quite a bit when shooting from the other side using the same three finger draw, and the sighting feels really weird. Others' mileage may vary.
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Post by highlander200268 on May 31, 2016 17:15:23 GMT
Anyone who has shot archery for a long time knows it is about consistency and form, with him he is all over the place, and the videos he shows he never shows where he misses which is probably a lot considering his poor form and very low poundage bow, i would love to see him do this with a 150# war bow and not a 15-20lb Shooting archery for a long time could just be an echo chamber, no? I'm interested in the physics of paradox and experience of loading the shelf from the "wrong" side. Looking to hit at about 15 metres or less. Do you have any experience of that to share? yes i have bowhunted and shot for nearly 30 years, and consistency is the key to accuracy, changing positions and jump around will not give you results you are looking for, archery is stationary, the slightest change in your form can result in a miss , the old saying goes aim small miss small
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Post by dchisenh on May 31, 2016 17:17:21 GMT
I had never heard of him before reading this thread, but I can see where his presentation and boasting can rub someone the wrong way. His trick shots are interesting to watch and do take some skill and, I'm sure, quite a bit of practice; but thinking those techniques would be actually practiced in a historical 'war' context is just plain silly. The actual paintings and historic examples he gives showing folks holding more than one arrow is perfectly logical; in the heat of battle you want to have as many arrows as easily available as possible...it doesn't mean they're going to try to shoot them one after the other as fast as possible. Accuracy > Speed. In my opinion, that's been the case from the atl-atl all the way though till early firearms, at least until the Gatling gun and later the Maxim gun. He should just stick to his tricks, they're entertaining enough without having to invent a false narrative to go with them.
-Dan
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Post by jammer on May 31, 2016 17:31:30 GMT
I think it's reasonable to assume some "tactical" or survival element to this forum's inhabitants. And I'm sure im not alone in wondering about the bow as a medium range weapon. Although I find loading it conventially somewhat "restrictive".
It would be a blessing if the bowmen of this forum could either dispel or confirm the myth, empirically or by practical means, the lingering thought that a bow could be loaded, and shot successfully at 45 feet (30M), from an offsided shelf-load/draw from a typical euro/Anglo-American 3-fingered draw & release.
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Post by highlander200268 on May 31, 2016 17:45:01 GMT
i know a lot of historical documentaries i have seen show archers as a volley type of weapon from the side lines, i am sure they got their hands dirty to but mostly a stationary position
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Post by dchisenh on May 31, 2016 18:06:25 GMT
Hey Jammer, I'm a little confused as to what it is you're asking. If you're asking about drawing from a hip quiver/back pocket quiver located on your left side if you're a right handed shooter, it would be possible but not as natural as from your right side. You could practice drawing from any sort of configuration until you're comfortable with it, like mentioned earlier, you've got to build up your muscle memory. If you're asking about range, 45 feet (~14 meters/15 yards) should be very easy to hit your target regardless of style. 30 meters (~100 feet) is also within most bow hunters range assuming a decent poundage draw (45-50lb I'd suggest as a minimum for deer, obviously increasing with target size as a general rule). When hunting, it's important to get as close as possible so you can take down your target successfully, anyone that's had to track a wounded deer through a swamp can vouch for that! Is that what you were asking?
-Dan
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Post by jammer on May 31, 2016 18:19:58 GMT
Hey dch, good to talk. I am curious about shooting a left handed bow as a right handed shooter.
In all regards I shoot r/h, I draw string with my r/h, I hold the bow with my l/h. But the shelf is on my right side. so as i loads, my arrows go straight onto the shelf.
I am told this will introduce adverse paradox, the arrow will flex, hit the bow, and veer wildly, missing my target.
But only if I use a euro 3 finger draw. I should use an Asian draw - with a thumb ring
Lars, and some others, seem to contradict this. Any views on this?
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Post by highlander200268 on May 31, 2016 18:49:12 GMT
the paradox can be controlled with spine selection though if you have an unorthodox-ed way of shooting you can always adjust your spine to compensate
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Post by dchisenh on May 31, 2016 19:27:00 GMT
Highlander makes a good point, spine selection determines flex so your arrow choice makes a difference. Check out www.3riversarchery.com and look under their "learn from the experts" tab to see some spine calculators, selection charts, etc. They're my favorite place for traditional archery and are really helpful if you have any questions. Also, I think it bears mentioning the type of bow you're using. Personally, I use an old Red Wing Hunter 45# right handed recurve and the way the palm swell is made into the bow, I couldn't use it left-handed; vice-versa for my grandpa's old left-handed recurve. On a lot of bows the palm swell inhibits your grip more than the shelf location when you try to use it opposite handed. I'm guessing you're talking about a bow that just has a plain grip (no palm bias)? I think it bears mentioning a story I heard awhile ago about an old rifle my great-uncle had. It was an ancient .22 that had a sight that was bent all to crap and was pretty much in such bad shape if anyone tried to use it they wouldn't be able to hit the broad side of a barn...except my great-uncle. Because it was "his" rifle and he had used it so much, he could still hit a squirrel out of a tree from way across his yard every single time he picked it up. If you practice however you wish to shoot enough, you'll become better at it.
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Post by jammer on May 31, 2016 19:37:38 GMT
No palm bias.
The current unverified thinking says, due to release dynamics causing the arrow to touch the riser on release;
3 finger euro draw = shelve on the opposite side to draw hand.
Thumb draw = shelve on same side as draw hand.
I am curious as to whether these statements are actually true, from (preferably someone else's) experience.
Although I'm thinking that there will be no evidence and I will have to buy a l/h flat bow and work through it.
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Post by dchisenh on May 31, 2016 20:04:24 GMT
Ah, I see what you're asking. Sorry, I can't say I've tried that. If you're asking from an academic perspective, go ahead and give it a try. If you're asking from a practical perspective, I'd suggest getting the proper handed bow. There's nothing wrong in finding a style of archery you enjoy and practicing at it, whether it's trick shots, target practice, hunting or just seeing what you can do with whatever type of bow that suits your fancy. My grandfather used to do trick shots back in the 60's, 70's and 80's using his recurve (hitting a quarter thrown in the air, etc.) and he also had a compound he used to hunt with. There's nothing wrong with different bows for different tasks, nor is it impossible to do many tasks with just one bow; just know it'll be harder to do something with a non-optimized setup.
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Post by highlander200268 on May 31, 2016 20:12:13 GMT
if you really want to watch a talented shooter watch some of Byron Ferguson's stuff, he was a true master
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Post by jammer on May 31, 2016 20:32:44 GMT
I shoot a 1 piece recurve r/h #35. 62 inch.
I find that resting my target points is fine, but broadheads make me think the shelf is on the wrong side, they're sharp etc.i end up faffing around. Wouldn't like to shoot them in a hurry. Which is my point, really. Thinking martial ly, rather than hunting game.
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Post by dchisenh on May 31, 2016 20:37:30 GMT
Byron is incredible. He can hit an aspirin thrown into the air! And he said the trick is to aim for the center, because the center of an aspirin is the same as the center of a beach ball! Byron's style of expo archery reminds me of older performers, like Howard Hill and even going back to the really old school shooting expos by Annie Oakley and Wild Bill. He has a dignified air about him that I think the original topic of this thread Lars doesn't have. If Lars presented his rapid fire and trick shots in a similar manner, I think he would be better received. -Dan
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Post by dchisenh on May 31, 2016 20:52:02 GMT
I gotcha Jammer. If you're thinking in a martial context, there's more than just speed to take into account. If the scenario is life or death, the only reason I would think of for not using a firearm would perhaps be stealth (even though a bow does also make some noise), so in that case I still think accuracy would trump speed. I'd advise against a Rambo-style conflict using your bow just the same as I'd advise against any scenario where the odds are stacked against you, and if you feel the need to rapid-fire arrows...they're against ya. -Dan
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Post by jammer on May 31, 2016 21:02:12 GMT
I gotcha Jammer. If you're thinking in a martial context, there's more than just speed to take into account. If the scenario is life or death, the only reason I would think of for not using a firearm would perhaps be stealth (even though a bow does also make some noise), so in that case I still think accuracy would trump speed. I'd advise against a Rambo-style conflict using your bow just the same as I'd advise against any scenario where the odds are stacked against you, and if you feel the need to rapid-fire arrows...they're against ya. -Dan Or...........I live in a country where firearms are illegal ☺. Seriously, I'm trying to solve a pretty obvious conundrum (without parting with any cash). Just from an historical pov it was bound to have been considered. No? Is it precluded by the paradox?
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Post by Timo Nieminen on May 31, 2016 21:10:21 GMT
The current unverified thinking says, due to release dynamics causing the arrow to touch the riser on release; 3 finger euro draw = shelve on the opposite side to draw hand. Thumb draw = shelve on same side as draw hand. I am curious as to whether these statements are actually true, from (preferably someone else's) experience. Especially for thumb draw, both sides of the bow work. Modern Mongolian style is arrow on the left, with thumb draw (old traditional style in Mongolia was arrow on the right). OK, first the well-known part. The arrow initially flexes the "wrong" way. But it isn't just bending - it's oscillating. For the arrow to clear the bow smoothly, you want the return flex to happen as the arrow goes past the bow. For this, you want to have the right frequency of oscillation, which means you want to have the correct stiffness. I.e., you want correctly-spined arrows. Two things cause the arrow to flex:
- The string moving to one side during release, which will be to the left with a RH 3-finger draw, and to the right with a RH thumb draw.
- The force from the string is directed towards the centre of the grip. The arrow is off-centre, so the arrow will flex.
These aren't independent of each other. The string moving off the central plane during release will change the direction of the force exerted on the arrow, and will change the amount of flex due to the arrow being off-centre. At first thought, this will affect the amount of flexing, rather than anything else, so the same stiffness/spine should still work. But if the arrow is on the "wrong" side, it will flex more, and make having the correct spine more important. Contrary to this last thought, I have seen claims by others that arrows on the "wrong" side need to be spined differently.
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Post by jammer on May 31, 2016 21:28:45 GMT
Thanks Timo. Is it more spine or less for the off-side do you reckon?
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Post by dchisenh on May 31, 2016 21:49:13 GMT
Hey Jammer, I'm sorry I didn't consider that possibility, but I still say accuracy trumps speed. As far as your specific questions about the paradox, it looks like Timo has done a great job explaining it and I hope that helps answer your question. I'll be honest, I hadn't heard of an archer's paradox until reading this thread, I just learned how to shoot from my grandpa, got my first bow when I was 8 and have been shooting ever since. Archery for me has always been a relaxing pursuit, mainly because I don't think of it academically and just shoot instinctively. Having worked in academia, I appreciate a good hypothetical min-max discussion, but I think that's precisely why I enjoy archery as much as I do, for me it's an opportunity to shut my brain off and just shoot. Good luck in whatever style you decide to practice and since you aren't allowed to have firearms, I would practice often! -Dan
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Post by Timo Nieminen on May 31, 2016 23:11:20 GMT
Thanks Timo. Is it more spine or less for the off-side do you reckon? Presumably less. I've seen a prescription using spines 5-10lb lower if shooting from a no-shelf bow with a wide handle, compared with a shelf (or narrow handle), since the wider handle means more flexing. Applying the same principle to off-side shooting, maybe 10% less stiff would work. (So 330 spine for the off-side instead of 300, etc.) It will vary with your actual release, so you might need to test a few different arrows.
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