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Post by justin520 on Mar 2, 2015 23:50:50 GMT
What I don't understand is your vehement defense of this swords supposed existence.
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Post by randomnobody on Mar 2, 2015 23:54:41 GMT
Our new friend MaximRecoil is pretty big on vehement defense on things nobody else has brought up. Check out the drop forging and oil threads.
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Post by MaximRecoil on Mar 3, 2015 0:28:56 GMT
If sword hunts are responsible for it's mysterious non existence than why are relatively rare civilian ko wakizashi still found? I never said any such thing. There are various reasons why, if ninja used/preferred a stereotypical Hollywood Ninja Sword, that examples would likely not be found today, which I've already pointed out. Say what? Lack of evidence doesn't establish anything other than lack of evidence. "Existence" isn't even the question; at least not with regard to straight-bladed and nearly straight-bladed Japanese swords, which definitely existed, and a ~straight blade is the primary defining feature of a Hollywood Ninja Sword. Lesser defining features include a blade that was a few inches shorter than a typical Katana, and a square guard ("tsuba"), and we don't know if that exact combination ever existed or not (I certainly haven't claimed it did at all, much less "vehemently"). The question is whether or not "ninjas" had a preference for straight-bladed swords, not whether or not they existed.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2015 0:40:51 GMT
The strongest evidence for this item's existence being a cartoon should be a hint. Except, that's not "the strongest evidence for this item's existence". In fact, the item's existence isn't even in dispute (i.e., straight and nearly straight bladed Japanese swords definitely existed, both in the copy of the Tang dao style and in the later Japanese styles). What's in dispute is the idea that ninjas had a preference for these straight blades. Can you present a more solid piece of evidence for the existence of this sword? The Hollywood ninja sword is not a jian nor is it a chokuto or similar subtype, and it's disingenuous to point to those and pretend they are examples of what you apparently want them to be. Everyone knows straight swords existed. I have one right here from somewhere in the early 19th century, but it isn't a Hollywood ninja sword, because they don't exist outside of fiction.
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Post by randomnobody on Mar 3, 2015 0:45:26 GMT
I'm still going with mu-zori is totally a thing, though not really common, but come to think of it I can't recall having ever seen a square tsuba on anything. Mokko, sure; square, no. This prompted me to Google up "tsuba shape" and I found this page (Again? Have I been here before?): www.japaneseswordindex.com/tsuba.htmKaku-gata is something I may have seen around, but that's not what I'd call square, either. Edit: Further searching showed me this: www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/15116-tsuba-outlines/Hira kaku, eh? Hmm...
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Post by MaximRecoil on Mar 3, 2015 1:08:28 GMT
Can you present a more solid piece of evidence for the existence of this sword? The Hollywood ninja sword is not a jian nor is it a chokuto or similar subtype, and it's disingenuous to point to those and pretend they are examples of what you apparently want them to be. I've already posted a picture of an old Japanese sword blade which is straight and is the exact same style of blade as used in most of the major '80s ninja movies such as American Ninja (1985). The description that accompanies the picture on Sanmei.com says: Though no evidence backing up that assertion is given. That isn't a fact.
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Post by MaximRecoil on Mar 3, 2015 1:13:04 GMT
I'm still going with mu-zori is totally a thing, though not really common, but come to think of it I can't recall having ever seen a square tsuba on anything. Mokko, sure; square, no. This prompted me to Google up "tsuba shape" and I found this page (Again? Have I been here before?): www.japaneseswordindex.com/tsuba.htmKaku-gata is something I may have seen around, but that's not what I'd call square, either. Edit: Further searching showed me this: www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/15116-tsuba-outlines/Hira kaku, eh? Hmm... Here is an old photograph of a square guard, from Kabuki theater:
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2015 1:55:03 GMT
Can you present a more solid piece of evidence for the existence of this sword? The Hollywood ninja sword is not a jian nor is it a chokuto or similar subtype, and it's disingenuous to point to those and pretend they are examples of what you apparently want them to be. I've already posted a picture of an old Japanese sword blade which is straight and is the exact same style of blade as used in most of the major '80s ninja movies such as American Ninja (1985). The description that accompanies the picture on Sanmei.com says: Though no evidence backing up that assertion is given. That isn't a fact. So sanmei.com gave this blade a fanciful description. That doesn't make it evidence. We have examples of a variety of sword mounts, big swords, little swords, large curve small curve, big handle, little handles. We even have mounts carved to look like shrimp. Not a single ninjato mount. Because there weren't any.
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Post by MaximRecoil on Mar 3, 2015 2:12:58 GMT
First of all, I already said that. Once again:
"Though no evidence backing up that assertion is given."
Second, regardless of the description, it is the exact same blade style as is used in a "Hollywood Ninja Sword". The blade is the most important part of a sword. Do you want to split hairs over the guard, a cheap item which can be replaced in less than a minute? We know that Hollywood Ninja Sword style blades existed. We know that Hollywood Ninja Sword style guards existed (and would be the absolute easiest type of guard to make yourself out of scrap metal), but because you've never seen the two together, that means it never, ever happened?
"Yes, there were." Do you see what I just did there? My not-a-fact mere assertion cancels out your not-a-fact mere assertion, or vice versa. Of course, in reality, it is unknown whether there were any or not.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2015 2:19:35 GMT
Except it isn't the exact same blade, the ninjato is depicted as short, heavy and thick, that blade is 27" which falls within standard lengths and has a normal width and thickness. You're cherry picking data points (exactly 2 - it is a sword and it is straight) to support your position. You don't prove the existence of historical ninja swords by pointing at 1 potential example that doesn't match most of the criteria and was made in 1860. Also you're now conflating a square guard with a Ninja sword guard. Square-shaped tsuba existed, but that doesn't make them ninja sword guards - the sword in the kabuki actor's obi doesn't match a depiction of a ninja sword by even the most strained interpretation. You're not really doing your position any favors here.
It is also unknown if there is an invisible dragon circling me in this very room - you cannot prove it isn't here. That kind of argument is absurd and easily dismissible.
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Post by ineffableone on Mar 3, 2015 2:26:29 GMT
Well I have to give you credit MaximRecoil, you have surly made an impression here at SBG. In a very short time you have managed to stomp your foot down and insist that noone else here but you knows what they are talking about on multiple threads. If I were you I would take some time and stop trying to force your opinion on everyone else. Maybe try a little less controversial topics for a bit. So far you have insisted oil is not needed, swords are forged wrong, and ninja swords are real because there is no evidence of them so no evidence to disprove them. It might be a good idea to head over the the welcomewagon sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/board/74/welcome-wagon and post a thread up letting us know who you are and a bit about yourself. Because right now your not really putting your best foot forward by jumping on and expecting to be taken as an expert on matters when we honestly know noting about you yet.
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Mar 3, 2015 2:30:11 GMT
The sword by Soukan was more likely made for royalists who were rebelling. Plenty of more plausible proof to back that up than the ninja theory.
Kaku tsuba is indeed the square one. I believe there are various forms of kaku tsuba, but the shape being square/squareish.
For the real ninjato I would look into Koga, Iga, Togakushi & other ninja museums in Japan. You can find videos and pics of them I know as I linked them to Finnish forum few years back.
However swords are very easy to doctor and it would be intersting to hear expert opinions on some of the pieces they have.
There are thousands and thousands of Japanese swords to study. They are very well represented. Koshirae however does not survive the time as well as blades do. Historical pre-Edo koshirae are rare.
Standardization is an Edo thing. For example during the heat of Muromachi era I think you could rock with pretty much anything you wanted.
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Post by MaximRecoil on Mar 3, 2015 2:39:38 GMT
In a very short time you have managed to stomp your foot down and insist that noone else here but you knows what they are talking about on multiple threads. I haven't done any such thing, and this false premise of yours negates the rest of your post. That's three bald-faced lies in a row, which can be added to the lie which was your false premise. Consider your unsolicited, off-topic, baseless, and belligerent opinion piece dismissed.
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Post by ineffableone on Mar 3, 2015 2:50:18 GMT
Well can't say I never tried to help. LOL, but guess some folks are beyond assistance.
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Post by MaximRecoil on Mar 3, 2015 3:28:29 GMT
Well can't say I never tried to help. LOL, but guess some folks are beyond assistance. Your idea of "help" is ad hominem, lies, non sequiturs, and "thread hijacking"?
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Greg E
Member
little bit of this... and a whole lot of that
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Post by Greg E on Mar 3, 2015 4:17:30 GMT
Ease up, or this will get locked.
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Post by chrisperoni on Mar 3, 2015 4:31:12 GMT
In a very short time you have managed to stomp your foot down and insist that noone else here but you knows what they are talking about on multiple threads. I haven't done any such thing, and this false premise of yours negates the rest of your post. That's three bald-faced lies in a row, which can be added to the lie which was your false premise. Consider your unsolicited, off-topic, baseless, and belligerent opinion piece dismissed. Dude, have you ever heard the phrase "perception is reality"? You don't realize it but what Ineff is telling you is exactly how you are coming off to everyone here. Whether or not you intend it or believe it, that's how you are being taken. Top that off with a mean reply when he is gently trying to help you and trust me, you are not giving anyone a good impression of yourself.
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Mar 3, 2015 5:14:14 GMT
This is starting to remind me of a thought exercise I saw Neil DeGrasse Tyson present to Joe Rogan in reply to Joe's belief that Bigfoot may exist. I'm paraphrasing here.
"There is a giant monster that lives deep in the woods, but nobody can prove it exists because it's eaten everyone who has seen it. Prove me wrong."
In reply to the cartoon image itself; that sword looks an awful lot like the swords I drew as a child, and that many who draw them without some knowledge of the geometry of Japanese weapons continue to draw to this day. I think that it should be taken into consideration that someone with likely little to no insight into such matters would simply draw a generalized, cartoonish image of something he had not likely seen a lot of.
Having given a glimpse into my mindset on this matter I am going to say this. Since it doesn't seem to be provable that there was a specialized "Ninja sword" or not, we're going to take everybody's thoughts on the matter as an opinion. Since that is the case, we are all going to provide thoughtful, civil exchanges.
To Mr. MaximRecoil I would like to say this, and please read it as a helpful bit from someone who like to see people get along and be welcomed. You are indeed coming off as standoffish, and not at all accepting of the opinions and insights from others, some of whom are possibly more knowledgeable than you on certain subjects. If you do indeed want the opinions and insight of others, please stop shooting them down. If you do not want them, please say so and people will know not to post.
So let it be written, so let it be done.
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Post by MaximRecoil on Mar 3, 2015 6:03:29 GMT
Dude, have you ever heard the phrase "perception is reality"? If you have a false perception of reality, that is no one's problem but your own. So you believe that everyone here has a false perception of reality? What of it? There is a crowd which consists of people like you on practically every forum on the internet. These are people who are light in reading comprehension ability and heavy in emotions (of the irrational variety). Invariably they will interrupt a debate with an opinion piece, i.e., an editorial, because it angers them to see someone disagreeing with their "buddies". I always suggest that they point out where I was uncivil toward someone who wasn't first uncivil toward me, and they never can (and neither can you, obviously); they simply launch into another irrelevant and baseless opinion piece, which is what I fully expect you and/or someone else like you will do in this thread. Is that a joke? He typed out 4 bald-faced lies ... oh, that's right, you have tacitly admitted to having a false perception of reality (which explains why this excerpt of yours has no connection to reality whatsoever), and apparently think that's a good thing. Carry on.
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Post by chrisperoni on Mar 3, 2015 6:13:40 GMT
Haaahhaaaaahaaaa!!!
(Talk about a false perception of reality)
You are awesome. You troll at an expert level - you got me. Have fun having all your threads locked.
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