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Post by MaximRecoil on Feb 27, 2015 17:59:09 GMT
i mean the bad guy played by John Lone...square tsuba, but curved blade...red same, if i remember correctly. Interesting. I never noticed, but I just checked and his blade does seem to have a slight curve to it. It is a weird looking blade. For example, it looks pretty much straight here: And pretty much straight here: But here it looks like it has a slight curve: I guess the curve is slight enough that it's not really noticeable unless viewing it from an angle rather than the side profile. Its blade is definitely longer than a typical Hollywood ninja sword too.
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Post by Krelian on Feb 27, 2015 20:59:46 GMT
Could also be two different props. It's pretty common in movies to have multiple of the same single prop, and in low-budget movies they don't always match...
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Post by karishamarsh on Feb 27, 2015 21:56:52 GMT
I do wanna say that most of these directors weren't kenjutsuka or sword aficionados so they got stuff wrong or made stuff up. As far as the existance of chokuto and tang dao (kara tachi), yes they were there, but only in their respective period. If you're part of a clandestine special forces group you wouldn't want a weapon that says "hey I'm a member of a clandestine special forces group"! This is why in ninja weapons you encounter lots of farming implements. So as far as swords go you probably see lots of ko wakizashi (civilian legal weapons) and the ko katana as well. I've never seen such a thing as a Ko-katana before from any credible sources.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2015 22:06:21 GMT
Seen many matching lengths of blade and tsuka on several websites on japanese antiques...but i believe the name "ko-katana" is from our times...
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Post by justin520 on Feb 27, 2015 23:28:40 GMT
Kodachi might be a more accurate term (although it also refers to specific koshirae) maybe even chisagatana.
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Greg E
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little bit of this... and a whole lot of that
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Post by Greg E on Feb 28, 2015 0:44:22 GMT
"The Hunted" is not bad; and at least the "main ninja" had a curved sword...;-) I loved that movie when it first came out. One of my favorite lines came from that movie. When asked why the main ninja would ever make the mistake of showing his face, the main Samurai character said "even monkeys fall out of trees sometimes". Or something to that effect. Now I will have to rent that one off of Netflix.
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Post by MaximRecoil on Feb 28, 2015 1:22:30 GMT
"The Hunted" is not bad; and at least the "main ninja" had a curved sword...;-) I loved that movie when it first came out. One of my favorite lines came from that movie. When asked why the main ninja would ever make the mistake of showing his face, the main Samurai character said "even monkeys fall out of trees sometimes". Or something to that effect. Now I will have to rent that one off of Netflix. It's one of my favorites of the genre. It seems to get overlooked a lot; maybe because it was made several years after the '80s ninja craze had died down (and there was never a Samurai craze in the US to begin with). I got a kick out of the drunken, lazy swordsmith. I don't know if any type of martial arts movies were big in the US in 1995. The Steven Seagal and Jean-Claude Van Damme movies which had turned ninja movies into yesterday's news during the late '80s and early '90s, were already dying down themselves by that time. Under Siege 2 was released in 1995, but it was a flop. Van Damme's Sudden Death (1995) was a flop as well, as was Street Fighter (1994) and everything else he did after Universal Soldier (1992), with the exception of Timecop (1994).
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Post by jlwilliams on Mar 1, 2015 12:07:27 GMT
That is a great line. I'll have to remember that.
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Post by ineffableone on Mar 2, 2015 21:35:05 GMT
Here is a very good video explaining how the myth of the straight short blade ninja sword likely got started. When putting a longer tsuka on a short blade, it makes it look straight rather than curved.
The OP's picture does not really matter as the myth of the straight ninja sword predates the Hollywood ninja movies. All that picture does is affirm that yes the myth was around before hand. Which is actually already known. all the Hollywood movies did was cement this myth into the minds of a lot of impressionable youth in the Western world.
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Post by JAK85 on Mar 2, 2015 21:50:26 GMT
I'm looking for a Sho Kosugi ninja sword and hidden dagger that was made in the 80's. It was produced by Sho Kosugi Enterprises, he also used it in some of his movies. Does anybody have one of these, or could give me some information on them? ?
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Post by MaximRecoil on Mar 2, 2015 22:03:49 GMT
Here is a very good video explaining how the myth of the straight short blade ninja sword likely got started. When putting a longer tsuka on a short blade, it makes it look straight rather than curved. The OP's picture does not really matter as the myth of the straight ninja sword predates the Hollywood ninja movies. All that picture does is affirm that yes the myth was around before hand. Which is actually already known. all the Hollywood movies did was cement this myth into the minds of a lot of impressionable youth in the Western world. Before you can legitimately refer to it as a myth, you must establish that it is a myth. If this were a TV courtroom drama, someone might say, "Objection: assumes facts not in evidence."
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Post by justin520 on Mar 2, 2015 22:12:44 GMT
Lack of nihonto that look like that is confirmation.
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Post by ineffableone on Mar 2, 2015 22:32:02 GMT
Here is a very good video explaining how the myth of the straight short blade ninja sword likely got started. When putting a longer tsuka on a short blade, it makes it look straight rather than curved. The OP's picture does not really matter as the myth of the straight ninja sword predates the Hollywood ninja movies. All that picture does is affirm that yes the myth was around before hand. Which is actually already known. all the Hollywood movies did was cement this myth into the minds of a lot of impressionable youth in the Western world. Before you can legitimately refer to it as a myth, you must establish that it is a myth. If this were a TV courtroom drama, someone might say, "Objection: assumes facts not in evidence."
Actually it works the other way around in a courtroom. You would have to establish evidence of there having ever been such a ninja sword to substantiate there was ever such a sword. There is zero documentation of such a sword having ever existed and no antiques have ever been unearthed. Without any evidence of the sword it remains a myth. "an idea or story that is believed by many people but that is not true" www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/myth
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2015 22:37:07 GMT
The strongest evidence for this item's existence being a cartoon should be a hint.
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Post by MaximRecoil on Mar 2, 2015 22:51:25 GMT
Lack of nihonto that look like that is confirmation. No, it isn't. Relatively few Japanese swords from hundreds of years ago are still around today, compared to how many were manufactured. Additionally, the vast majority of sword owners back then were not "ninjas". Given Japan's draconian sword laws, and their various "sword hunts" throughout history (confiscation plus destruction), it is a wonder that any vintage Japanese swords have survived at all. Finding a specific style of sword today which may have been used illegally by relatively small, secluded clans, centuries ago, is a long shot at best. By the way, absence of evidence ≠ evidence of absence.
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Post by MaximRecoil on Mar 2, 2015 22:56:41 GMT
Before you can legitimately refer to it as a myth, you must establish that it is a myth. If this were a TV courtroom drama, someone might say, "Objection: assumes facts not in evidence."
Actually it works the other way around in a courtroom. You would have to establish evidence of there having ever been such a ninja sword to substantiate there was ever such a sword. There is zero documentation of such a sword having ever existed and no antiques have ever been unearthed. Without any evidence of the sword it remains a myth. "an idea or story that is believed by many people but that is not true" www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mythThat's not an example of it "working the other way around". Anything presented as fact has to first be established as a fact in order to be legitimate. In other words, the exact same objection could be used for the following two pretending-to-be-factual statements: 1. Ninjas definitely used such and such a sword. 2. Ninjas definitely didn't use such and such a sword.
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Post by MaximRecoil on Mar 2, 2015 23:03:22 GMT
The strongest evidence for this item's existence being a cartoon should be a hint. Except, that's not "the strongest evidence for this item's existence". In fact, the item's existence isn't even in dispute (i.e., straight and nearly straight bladed Japanese swords definitely existed, both in the copy of the Tang dao style and in the later Japanese styles). What's in dispute is the idea that ninjas had a preference for these straight blades.
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Post by randomnobody on Mar 2, 2015 23:05:50 GMT
I've always giggled at folks holding the notion that the reason we don't see "ninja swords" as such today was because they were purpose-made to be disposable. Cheap, small, low-quality stuffs that would not be missed and could be replaced easily and thus could be left behind or abandoned after carrying out whatever mission. Since this is the case, it goes, the swords were fairly quick to deteriorate with neglect and essentially disintegrated over a few years time or were simply destroyed deliberately. Thus, there are no surviving examples.
My theory is, in the early days of kabuki (many times credited as the source of the "ninja costume"), as in modern cinema, the need to distinguish the good guys from the bad guys often leads to them carrying different styles of weapons. Be it an M-16 (or variant) against an AK-47 or a cruciform sword against a scimitar, the bad guys always used something the good guys didn't. This is why, I like to think, in Japan, where there was only ever one prevalent shape of sword, the long, curved katana were reserved for the "good and noble" samurai (as they were the only ones allowed them for much of history) and the short, straight swords were for the "sneaky, dirty ninja" folk. "Peasants," to simplify, were only allowed short swords, after all, so it stands to reason a "peasant ninja" as they are often cast would only have access to a shorter sword. That the swords near little to no curve just makes it more obvious that this is a "different kind of sword" than the "good guy" character used.
Otherwise, the reason we don't see any aliens today is because we are the aliens .
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Post by MaximRecoil on Mar 2, 2015 23:16:52 GMT
I've always giggled at folks holding the notion that the reason we don't see "ninja swords" as such today was because they were purpose-made to be disposable. Cheap, small, low-quality stuffs that would not be missed and could be replaced easily and thus could be left behind or abandoned after carrying out whatever mission. Since this is the case, it goes, the swords were fairly quick to deteriorate with neglect and essentially disintegrated over a few years time or were simply destroyed deliberately. Thus, there are no surviving examples. If ninjas did have a preference for a specific type of sword which was different than a typical "samurai sword", you would be unlikely to find one today, regardless of how much it originally cost (I gave the reason why a few posts back). And even if you did find one which was a good match for a "Hollywood Ninja Sword", you probably couldn't prove it was owned by a ninja, much less prove that ninjas in general used/preferred swords of that style.
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Post by justin520 on Mar 2, 2015 23:49:32 GMT
If sword hunts are responsible for it's mysterious non existence than why are relatively rare civilian ko wakizashi still found? Also let's not quote semprini Chenney to justify things lol.
The fact is the lack of evidence more often than not in archeology signifies the absence of an item that was purported to exist.
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