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Post by MaximRecoil on Feb 26, 2015 8:31:23 GMT
 That's a French political cartoon from the late 1890s. It is too bad there is no way to find out where the artist got the idea to draw a sword that many people refer to as a Hollywood invention, nearly a century before Hollywood invented it. That style of blade originated in China during the Tang Dynasty, and they are known today as "Tang dao":  Tang Daos were exported from China to Japan (and Korea), resulting in Japanese swordsmiths making their own versions, which fall under the general category of "chokuto", and more specifically, kiriha zukuri:  As for "ninjas", it is hard to say anything for certain about them, but it is commonly believed that the people who would become known as "ninjas" came to Japan from China during the Tang Dynasty. If that's true, it follows that they would have likely used and made the Tang dao style of sword, at least in their early history. It is also commonly believed that they were mainly comprised of secluded clans living in mountainous regions (e.g., Iga, Koga), and if that's true, it isn't hard to imagine them, or some of them, holding onto the Tang dao tradition of their ancestors long after the rest of Japan had moved mainly to curved blades. With regard to the "Hollywood Ninja Sword", commonly referred to as a "ninjato": it is exemplified by the swords used in the Cannon ninja movies (which were the main driving force behind the '80s "ninja craze"), starting with Revenge of the Ninja in 1983 (the sword props used in the first Cannon ninja movie: Enter the Ninja [1981], were similar, but they had a slightly curved blade). The Cannon sword props didn't use the Tang Dao / kiriha zukuri style of blade, but rather, they usually used a blade that looked like a normal Katana blade (e.g., shinogi zukuri with a ko kissaki), except straight (mu sori). For example, here's a screenshot American Ninja (1985):  And here's a screenshot from Revenge of the Ninja:  That one is a "shobu zukuri" blade style (i.e., no "yokote" [vertical line/ridge at the tip]). So even though a lot of mail order companies sold/sell "ninjatos" with a triangular / flat chisel tip Tang dao style blade (they probably were/are repurposed Tang daos in the first place), in the most famous Hollywood ninja movies they were actually more like this historical Katana blade from 1860 (albeit, shorter):  |
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Post by justin520 on Feb 26, 2015 13:11:40 GMT
I do wanna say that most of these directors weren't kenjutsuka or sword aficionados so they got stuff wrong or made stuff up. As far as the existance of chokuto and tang dao (kara tachi), yes they were there, but only in their respective period. If you're part of a clandestine special forces group you wouldn't want a weapon that says "hey I'm a member of a clandestine special forces group"! This is why in ninja weapons you encounter lots of farming implements. So as far as swords go you probably see lots of ko wakizashi (civilian legal weapons) and the ko katana as well.
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Post by justin520 on Feb 26, 2015 13:13:23 GMT
As far as that French cartoons description, I'm pretty sure that's racist and not concerned with accuracy.
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Post by KaOsBlaKbLaDe on Feb 26, 2015 13:20:14 GMT
Interesting info, but for me the scary part is finding out that i'm a ninja nerd.
Of course Sho Kosugi,.....but iirc wasn't Kurt Thomas(???) the gymnast one of the stars of american ninja?
I was like 11 when enter the ninja came out, and was hooked on ninja's for the longest time.
.......still havent figured out how to make sho's smoke bombs lol.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2015 13:25:41 GMT
How's the guy with the pointy helmet going to get his knife out of the stone block?
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Post by MaximRecoil on Feb 26, 2015 13:49:37 GMT
If you're part of a clandestine special forces group you wouldn't want a weapon that says "hey I'm a member of a clandestine special forces group"! Actually, you wouldn't want to be seen at all, at least not while up to no good in the middle of the night. If you're "undercover", obviously you would tailor your appearance accordingly, but if you're on some sort of "night mission", you would dress in dark clothes, cover your face, and bring along whatever tools/weapons you think you'll need, regardless of what they look like. Dark clothes, a ski mask, and a crowbar look rather incriminating too, but that doesn't prevent burglars from wearing/carrying such things, because the idea is to not be seen in the first place, and if you are seen, the mask conceals your identity so that if you manage to get away no one can give a useful description to the police. On the other hand, the same burglar at a different time might try something like posing as a moving company employee or something, so as to enter an unoccupied residence in broad daylight without arousing any suspicion from the neighbors. On top of that, straight-bladed (and nearly straight-bladed) katanas definitely existed (such as the one made in 1860 in the image I posted), so who's to say that they signified anything other than the preference of its owner? Do you think that whoever owned that particular sword was pegged as being part of a clandestine special forces group every time he wore it? I suspect that, if people noticed it at all, they would have found it interesting (due to being unusual), rather than incriminating. As far as that French cartoons description, I'm pretty sure that's racist and not concerned with accuracy. The point is that some guy drew a "Hollywood Ninja Sword" nearly a century before the first Hollywood movie featuring such a sword (short & straight blade, square guard) was released. |
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Post by MaximRecoil on Feb 26, 2015 14:13:32 GMT
Interesting info, but for me the scary part is finding out that i'm a ninja nerd. Of course Sho Kosugi,.....but iirc wasn't Kurt Thomas(  ) the gymnast one of the stars of american ninja? I was like 11 when enter the ninja came out, and was hooked on ninja's for the longest time. .......still havent figured out how to make sho's smoke bombs lol. I was 6 when Enter the Ninja came out in '81, but I don't remember it being released. However, I happened to be at my uncle's house in '82 or so, and they were watching it on TV (it was either on a pay channel like HBO or they rented it on VHS). Prior to that I'd never heard of "ninjas"; I didn't have any concept of them whatsoever. I was totally enthralled with the movie; these "ninjas" were the most amazing thing I'd ever seen. I was there with my parents and siblings, and my mother was very religious and strict about what we were allowed to watch. She wasn't impressed with this movie, and tried to make us leave a couple of times, but Dad, my older brother, and I all wanted to stay until it was over. We lucked out in that, strangely enough, this movie has no "adult language", despite being rated R, and language would always fire my mother up far more than fake violence, so we managed to stay until the end. I talked about that movie for weeks on end with my friends after that. It was a long time before I got a chance to see it again. When we got a VCR in the late '80s, I checked every rental place in town, and none of them had it. The biggest rental place in town had both of the sequels, along with the American Ninja movies, and lots of other ninja / martial arts movies, but it wasn't until 1992 when I was 17 that I finally found a place to rent it. It was quite a letdown. Nowadays I only watch it for a laugh and nostalgia; it is cheesy as the day is long. |
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Post by justin520 on Feb 26, 2015 14:28:21 GMT
Actually, you wouldn't want to be seen at all, at least not while up to no good in the middle of the night. If you're "undercover", obviously you would tailor your appearance accordingly, but if you're on some sort of "night mission", you would dress in dark clothes, cover your face, and bring along whatever tools/weapons you think you'll need, regardless of what they look like. Dark clothes, a ski mask, and a crowbar look rather incriminating too, but that doesn't prevent burglars from wearing/carrying such things, because the idea is to not be seen in the first place, and if you are seen, the mask conceals your identity so that if you manage to get away no one can give a useful description to the police. On the other hand, the same burglar at a different time might try something like posing as a moving company employee or something, so as to enter an unoccupied residence in broad daylight without arousing any suspicion from the neighbors.
On top of that, straight-bladed (and nearly straight-bladed) katanas definitely existed (such as the one made in 1860 in the image I posted), so who's to say that they signified anything other than the preference of its owner? Do you think that whoever owned that particular sword was pegged as being part of a clandestine special forces group every time he wore it? I suspect that, if people noticed it at all, they would have found it interesting (due to being unusual), rather than incriminating. As far as not wanting to be seen at all I'd imagine you'd just go for smaller swords if the assumption is that you'll be killing indoors. A wakizashi/ko katana if you know their might be a serious fight during the escape but probably usually a tanto. Not being seen means not being heard, even a 20 inch saya bumps into stuff. Now as far as the straight blades that appear in later Japanese history you made my point for me, these are an anomaly, the exception and not the rule. Did we see them? Yes of course we did, I'm sure we also on occasion saw an Edo era fencer who had gotten a hold of a Chinese sword through trade in the Ryukyus, it was just quite odd and uncommon. Shinobi had a vast array of existing armory to choose from and even in their heyday fought unarmored opponents (usually) so a curved sword has marked advantages if the style emphasizes slicing draw cuts. Also something to think of is the kamasu kissaki, it strikes me as there for no particular reason, what I typically here was it was less work to smith and therefor "cheap" for ninja crews. If that's the case though why not just buy a broken sword that got put through satsuma age? |
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Post by justin520 on Feb 26, 2015 14:29:00 GMT
Sorry I screwed up the quote thing, you said all that, not me lol.
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Post by MaximRecoil on Feb 26, 2015 15:19:14 GMT
A ko katana is about the same dimensions as a Hollywood ninjato. As for the saya bumping into things, that would be a good reason to strap it to your back, and a straight blade is somewhat easier to draw from your back than a curved blade. Either way, I would expect a sword to be a last resort. If all goes well in an e.g., nighttime break & enter + assassination, I would expect a small weapon would be used to dispatch someone in their sleep.
Ninja were also the exception, not the rule, which is why there is so little that is truly known about them. Any covert "special forces" type group is always going to be the exception, by definition. If they were common, they wouldn't be special, nor covert.
I don't know what you're referring to. The typical Hollywood ninjato doesn't have a kamasu kissaki, and neither do any of the mail order ones that I know of. Historical examples of straight Japanese blades I've seen either have a Tang dao style blade or a shinogi zukuri style blade with a typical ko kissaki.
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Post by randomnobody on Feb 26, 2015 16:47:19 GMT
I believe it's the Kanbun era that's famous for having very straight blades, attributed to the growth of early kendo and the samurai practicing it wanting a live blade with a shape more in line with their practice shinai, but that's all basically hearsay. Muzori is not unheard of, but it is uncommon, especially in katana length. Heck, I've seen quite a few uchizori tanto. Not every sword in Japan was always the same old thing we see constantly in the modern production market. Swords used to be unique.  Ninja I'll stay away from because lol.  Edit: As to the cartoon, my bet is the artist had only a vague idea what a Japanese sword (knife?) actually looked like, so he just threw in a blade shape he'd probably seen somewhere before. The rest was identifiable as Japanese enough to get the point across. What gets me is everybody else has the same knife. |
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Post by Jamesovich3 on Feb 26, 2015 22:34:35 GMT
Straight blades most definetly exist however there is no such thing as a purely ninja sword. Ninja were samurai with certain skills. An iconic weapon would easily give them away, just how people look at a katana and go "ooooh samurai sword."
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Post by Aikidoka on Feb 26, 2015 23:36:10 GMT
 Some ninjato that are currently available have ko-kissaki and some have kamasu-kissaki. The Hanwei Practical Shinobi Ninjato has the kamasu-kissaki:  This sword could also be described as a "Hollywood" sword now, I suppose, since it was used by the ninjas in the most recent Wolverine movie. Here is a photo of a prop sword from that movie:  |
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Post by MaximRecoil on Feb 27, 2015 7:04:47 GMT
Straight blades most definetly exist however there is no such thing as a purely ninja sword. It is extremely unlikely that every ninja owned the exact same type of sword. However, a short, straight blade makes sense if you are going to strap it to your back. Also, if ninjas originated in China during the Tang Dynasty as many believe, then the earliest of them almost certainly would have used a Tang dao, since that was the "sword du jour" at the time in both China and Japan. As I mentioned earlier, a secluded and specialized group holding onto the old ways longer than the mainstream does isn't hard to imagine. As a rough analogy, there are specialized groups in the U.S. military that still use a "1911" pistol rather than the Beretta M9 which became the standard sidearm in 1985. Up until a few years ago, they were still using and refurbishing original M1911s and M1911A1s, the newest of which were manufactured in 1945. In 2012 they finally ordered 12,000 new 1911s from Colt (with a few enhancements compared to original M1911s and M1911A1s), which are known as M45A1. Stuff like this can happen for various reasons, such as an older design being particularly well suited to a specialized application (the old M14 is another example, which was replaced as the standard rifle by the M16 in the early '60s, but still sees duty as a sniper rifle). Add in the strong sense of tradition that the Japanese people are well known for, plus seclusion, plus specialized application, and you have a strong recipe for different weapons being used as compared to the mainstream. That may or may not be true, either fully or partially. You mean, give them away more than e.g., being in someone else's residence without authorization in the middle of the night would give them away? Again, unless it is an "undercover" type job, the idea is to not be seen at all. Having a curved sword isn't going to make someone say, "Oh, you're okay, go about your business," after they've caught you breaking into their house in the middle of the night. |
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Post by MaximRecoil on Feb 27, 2015 7:31:00 GMT
Some ninjato that are currently available have ko-kissaki and some have kamasu-kissaki. The Hanwei Practical Shinobi Ninjato has the kamasu-kissaki: This sword could also be described as a "Hollywood" sword now, I suppose, since it was used by the ninjas in the most recent Wolverine movie. Here is a photo of a prop sword from that movie: That's interesting, though I consider the "Hollywood Ninja Sword" and the "Mail Order Ninja Sword" to have been permanently defined during the '80s. That Hanwei sword, while technically "mail order", is a far cry from the ninja swords which littered the back pages of martial arts magazines during the '80s. Those were all cheap, very-mass-produced, machined-from-plate stuff (not forged), usually 420 or 440A stainless, or plain old mild steel (some of them even had aluminum, or worse, die-cast zinc "blades"). Here's a typical example:  Note that their "best" version is 420 stainless (not forged, fake hamon), for a ridiculously high price (also note that it has the Tang dao / kiriha zukuri blade style, which is similar in appearance to, but different than, shinogi zukuri style blades with a kamasu kissaki). For $110 today, you can easily get a sword with a forged 1060 or even 1095 blade, and that's after ~30 years of inflation. $110 in 1983 is about $258 today, and for $258 today you can get folded 1060 steel forge welded to a 1095 core, and differential hardening, not to mention real ray skin and good quality fittings made from iron, copper, or brass (as opposed to die-cast zinc or even "resin"). The internet has brought everyone easy access to real swords forged from high quality steel, but stuff like that was rarely, if ever, found in the back of a magazine back then. The term "mail order" carried a different connotation then vs. now. Today, practically anything can easily be ordered through the mail because of the internet, but back then, "mail order" was generally thought of as companies which ran print ads in magazines and comic books, and that business, more often than not, consisted of selling cheap stuff at a very high profit margin. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2015 17:03:09 GMT
I always thought of Chuck Norris "Octagon" as the best and most realistic Ninja movie...they all use standard curved katana and the trapping/ambushing techniques are basic special forces; no James-Bondy-explosives, some shuriken, but a lot of Bo-staffs, kobudo-weapons and so...like it. Still awesome Sai-work by Richard Norton; he got me into this weapon.
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Post by MaximRecoil on Feb 27, 2015 17:26:05 GMT
I always thought of Chuck Norris "Octagon" as the best and most realistic Ninja movie...they all use standard curved katana and the trapping/ambushing techniques are basic special forces; no James-Bondy-explosives, some shuriken, but a lot of Bo-staffs, kobudo-weapons and so...like it. Still awesome Sai-work by Richard Norton; he got me into this weapon. I haven't seen it since I was a kid, but I remember thinking it was boring. I only liked ninja movies which focused on a ninja as the hero (or even as a villain; as long as they weren't just nameless/faceless fodder), which I'm pretty sure was first done in Enter the Ninja in 1981 (at least with regard to American movies), which set the mold for the rest of the major ninja movies of the '80s. An example of a pretty good one (IMO) where all of the ninjas are villians, but villains with faces and some character development (especially for the leader), is "The Hunted" (1995). |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2015 17:28:19 GMT
"The Hunted" is not bad; and at least the "main ninja" had a curved sword...;-)
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Post by MaximRecoil on Feb 27, 2015 17:33:42 GMT
"The Hunted" is not bad; and at least the "main ninja" had a curved sword...;-) Do you mean Yoshio Harada's character? I think he was supposed to be a samurai, at least in spirit. Note that a distinction between a samurai sword and a ninja sword was made in that movie by the drunken swordsmith; i.e., he had a rusty short & straight bladed sword with a square guard kicking around his shop which he specifically called a "ninjato", and taught Christopher Lambert's character how to use it (even invoking the notorious "reverse grip" technique which some people claim is how a ninjato is supposed to be used). |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2015 17:38:04 GMT
i mean the bad guy played by John Lone...square tsuba, but curved blade...red same, if i remember correctly.
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) the gymnast one of the stars of american ninja?
Things have changed!