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Post by ShooterMike on Jan 30, 2008 3:22:46 GMT
I've been reading the translation of Italian Master Philippo Vadi's Arte Gladiatoria Dimicandi done by Luca Porzio and Greg Mele recently. An excellent translation if you are interested in the Italian take on the European longsword. One of the things Vadi stresses is the reverso or reverse cut. Basically, it seems to involve reversing the direction of the previous overhand cut. It can be used to either hit an opening that was closed to the overhand, or to follow up a partially successful downward cut with an upward cut into the lower opening. It can also be used from the lower guard to snap a quick cut into the lower right or lower left openings. IMO it further validates the reasoning for the double edged blade on the European longsword. I set out to try learning this cut on both left and right sides, as a follow up to my cutting efforts. Here is the result of my first attempts, after a little practice. Hope you enjoy this non-traditional take on backyard cutting. And I'd like to hear what people think about the idea of incorporating medieval fencing practice into pleasurable backyard cutting. Oh yeah, almost forgot. The sword in the video is an AT1516. It's a light, fast, tough little longsword with a 33 inch blade. It became Randomnobody's favorite sword of mine when he visited. He tried his best to break it. But he couldn't seem to damage this little joy of a sword. ;D
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Post by randomnobody on Jan 30, 2008 4:02:59 GMT
I did love that sword, and I'd still say it's my favorite. I did manage to remove it from play. Loosened that pommel right up. Decaf was so upset, he liked it, too. Can't wait to see the video.
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Post by oos3thoo on Jan 30, 2008 4:07:51 GMT
I anxiously await this video as well
BTW is your handle peened or threaded?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2008 4:16:30 GMT
I also await the video!
oos3thoo, Angus Trim swords are threaded (all of them, to my knowledge).
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Post by randomnobody on Jan 30, 2008 4:21:52 GMT
Yep, it was threaded, with a hex nut if I recall. I tried to make him go back inside and fix it so I could keep playing with it but he wouldn't so I had to settle for his customized Edward III, which I did not care for. Then there was that other sword, was it somebody's Ranger or something? It was a beast, though; far too heavy. I'm terrible with single-handers, I learned, and his selection of two-handers was limited on that outing. I broke the best one.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2008 7:00:39 GMT
Hi Mike. Don't let the Italian terminology overwhelm you. A "mandritto" is any cut from the right side. "Dritto" means right. "Reverso" is any cut from the opposite way. The masters assume that everyone is right handed. It gets confusing if you have a left-handed sword man. It is silly to call a lefties on-side cut a "mandritto". It is also silly to call it a "reverso". Modern SCA terminology is a lot simpler. On-side and off-side can be applied to righties or lefties without confusion.
High cuts that go vertically down are called "fendente". So you have "mandritto fendente" on the right and "reverso fendente" on the left side.
Horizontal cuts are called "tondo". So you have "mandritto tondo" on the right and "reverso tondo" from the left.
Diagonal downward cuts are called "sgualembro". So you have "mandritto sgualembro" on the right and "reverso sgualembro" on the left.
Undercuts that come up are called "ridoppio". Again "mandritto ridoppio" on the right and "reverso ridoppio" on the left.
The false edge cuts get even more confusing. A cut that starts on the left side and ends on the right shoulder is called a "falso dritto ". Seems odd. A cut from the right side to the left shoulder is called "falso manco".
A straight up vertical cut is called "montante". Not sure if this is false edge or true edge specific. It is usually in the false edge section.
A half cut from the right is called "mezzo (half) mandritto". I don't have a reference for this one, but I presume a half cut from the left is called "mezzo reverso".
There are four thrusts.
"Punta dritta" is a thrust executed with the hand(s) in middle guard position in front of your body.
"Punta roversa" is a thrust with the hand(s) in the Face Guard position in front of your face.
"Imbroccata", or overhand thrust, normally executed in from a hanging guard over your head.
"stoccata" or underhand thrust, normally executed from a low guard.
I hope I have have not made you dizzy with too much information. Here is an easier break down from an earlier period.
Mandritto is any Right cut and Reverso is any Left cut. Fendente is any High cut. Add Mandritto or Reverso depending on right or left side. Mezano is any Middle cut. Add Mandritto or Reverso depending on right or left side. Sottano is any Under cut. Add Mandritto or Reverso depending on right or left side.
I'm glade this came up. The Italian systems don't seem to get as much attentions as the German.
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Post by ShooterMike on Jan 30, 2008 11:37:43 GMT
Thanks Tsafa. I've been reading the book, and it takes hours to glean what you just explained so succinctly.
To clarify, Random didn't "break" an ATrim sword. I just hadn't put any loctite on the threads yet. Two drops of red loctite, tighten the hexnut and it's good as new. And hasn't come loose since.
And the video it uploaded and linked now.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2008 14:11:42 GMT
Heh, I am left handed, does that mean that I am always striking in reverso? Sounds very interesting, I am looking into getting some historical sword manuals so that I can learn more for re-enactment.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2008 15:45:22 GMT
Very nice Mike! I agree that combining backyard cutting with training is a good idea. It's fun and you can practice too. The only problem is that you have to avoid hitting the stands, and as such you can't perform a "fredente" or "montante" or vertical cuts. If you hand the bottles and jugs from twine or string on a tree branch or similar object, it would allow this. Takes a little longer to set up, but it helps. You should put some of that in your videos.
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Post by YlliwCir on Jan 30, 2008 17:08:24 GMT
Good vid, Mike. I been wondering about cutting up like that, with the "top" of the blade, something new to practice, thanks. Looks a little cooler there.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2008 17:15:29 GMT
Great vid Mike. Just to clarify, the Italian lingo. You did four cuts.
The downward diagonals would be called "mandritto sgualembro" on the right and "reverso sgualembro" on the left.
The upward diagonals with the false edge would be called "falso dritto " for the one that starts on the left side and ends on the right shoulder. A cut from the right side to the left shoulder is called "falso manco".
Bloodwraith, don't know what to call your strikes. If your left hand in nearest the guard that is your primary side. It makes no sense to call it a "Reverso" with means opposite side. To call it a "madritto" when you are left handed is more nuts, because how you you call your left side, your right side. I can't figure this out, did they refuse admittance to left-handed people in fencing schools in Italy?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2008 19:20:22 GMT
I'm a little rusty with my Italian longsword, but I believe that different masters used different terms for the cuts, hence the confusion.
I did that with a longsword against a full tatami mat. In my case, it was directly from Boar's Tooth (Dente di Cinghale). The reason is that we were cutting with the back edge from Boar's Tooth in sparring and I wanted to find out if it was lethal enough or if we were justing fooling ourselves. No lie, it'll take your hand right off. I would follow it with a thrust however.
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Post by randomnobody on Jan 30, 2008 21:48:01 GMT
To clarify, Random didn't "break" an ATrim sword. I just hadn't put any loctite on the threads yet. Two drops of red loctite, tighten the hexnut and it's good as new. And hasn't come loose since. No, but I came close. Had I another hour or two with it I'm sure I'd have wrecked it beyond repair. And a fine video it is. I'll have to remember to try that if I ever get my 1506. (still have 2/3 of that to pay off...)
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Post by oos3thoo on Jan 30, 2008 22:57:35 GMT
Very Good! 1+ Karma for you! I am hoping to incorporate this into my practice. I should look into a double edge katana.... ;D
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2008 2:32:02 GMT
Impressive cutting there Shoots, I did that with a one hander at re-enactment one night, completely confuse my opponent ;D I really like this sort of thing, I need to learn more about it. I've spent so many years doing modern combat that I overlooked the medieval sword combat. I need to rectify this situation, thanks for giving me something else to study Shoots, karma mate
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2008 5:22:55 GMT
The reason is that we were cutting with the back edge from Boar's Tooth in sparring and I wanted to find out if it was lethal enough or if we were justing fooling ourselves. No lie, it'll take your hand right off. I would follow it with a thrust however. I have come to look upon false edge cuts with a longsword as opportunistic cuts. You use them as a follow up, bait, or if the person trips and sticks his head way out. I think you will use them most often as parring deflections. It takes little effort to deflect an incoming cut by raising your blade. Once you have parried with the false edge, you are now in position to cut down with the true edge. A false edge parry must be done with speed in order to meet to other blade in time to parry. For that reason practicing cuts with it is very valid, even if you never get to do it as an attack.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2008 5:15:56 GMT
Very Good! 1+ Karma for you! I am hoping to incorporate this into my practice. I should look into a double edge katana.... ;D double edge katanas are so filthy and effective
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Post by oos3thoo on Feb 1, 2008 5:35:15 GMT
Indeed. I plan to surprise my Shiha when I bring this in for practice. I am now getting one custom made for my masahiro. I plan on replacing the blade or just making a brand new sword.
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Post by themaster293 on Feb 1, 2008 6:13:37 GMT
Maybe you should try tatami mats.
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Post by ShooterMike on Feb 1, 2008 18:40:50 GMT
Maybe you should try tatami mats. If you mean me, I have some more on order. We cut up all I had at a cutting party a couple of months ago. I'm looking forward to a big batch of tatami omote soon.
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