Recently we've been seeing a lot of bow use in popular media for combat applications, ie The Avengers, Arrow,Hunger Games. So I tried to research as t whether archery has a place in modern times in combat. All I really found was a couple of videos put out by Ares Tactical showing his take on an archery based tactical system,which I'm in 2 minds about. As a lifelong bow hunter I can fully understand how deadly a bow can be in capable hands,but as a practical person I can also say that there are far better options. Let's face it,in reality,Hawkeye would get his arse handed to him 99% of the time. So what do you guys think? Can you see any use of archery in this day and age as a combat technique? My thoughts are that it is similar to sword play, in that it is certainly deadly,but would have limited applications.
Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Sept 9, 2014 9:08:52 GMT
Rubber tubing crossbows, were used in vietnam to take out sentries. The brown navy used bows to lanuch flaming arrow into huts. We all know how well Rambo did taking out alot of ememies well belong bow range.
Ha ha I forgot about Rambo ! Even he tossed the bow once he was confronted with a bunch of opponents armed with full auto weapons if he had a choice :-) but he did make good use of it in guerilla style warfare
Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Sept 9, 2014 9:26:38 GMT
Didn't you love the sence where he took out the vietnamese commander at very long range. The guy just stands there lets Rambo aim and release. Me I would have been running getting behind the rocks and trees.
But no to your question with all the equipment and body armour soliders wear now you would only have very small areas you could get a arrows into.
Actually I can sort of believe that scene,in that his bow and theoretical skill with it,would allow for that shot to happen. But yeah I would be running too,and even if you didn't run,the flight time of the arrow at that range would allow you to at least jum out of the way,especially if you saw the shot fired. As for body armour,I might have thought an arrow with a bodkin style point,fired from a decently powerful bow,could penetrate most body armour. But I'm no expert there all I know is how much stuff my arrows seem to be able to penetrate :-)
Post by aussie-rabbit on Sept 9, 2014 14:09:28 GMT
L Driggers (fallen) wrote Have a old hard armour plate want to put it on and let me shoot at you with arrows and 7.62mmNATO AP in the name of sicence
A somewhat traditional bow and arrow, even a compound bow takes a long time to become competent with, a compound cross bow is easier to learn but much slower to reload, a silenced .22 rifle with a folding stock is more capable, lighter, faster to use, plus you can carry 50 rounds in your pocket, I would guess 50 arrows in a quiver is a little bulky. :lol:
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Post by Dapper Blades on Sept 9, 2014 16:20:03 GMT
So what do you guys think? Can you see any use of archery in this day and age as a combat technique? My thoughts are that it is similar to sword play, in that it is certainly deadly,but would have limited applications.
Possible to use some archery for combat, yes. Practical? Certainly not.
Arrows have been shown to do more damage against kevlar vests than bullets because of the increased mass traveling at a lower speed. This is the reason that stab-protecting armor is not 100% kevlar. Once you have the fancy plates and stuff added to a kevlar vest, the bow becomes less viable.
That being said, even against an unarmored opponent with a gun, unless you're very stealthy and can fire an arrow before you're seen, most guns are faster to shoot, faster to reload, and a much more mobile weapon.
And with the stealth approach, it's not like bows are even close to silent like some video games depict.
Just my two cents. I would not recommend a bow for combat in the modern era.
Not going to disagree with anyone here. Like I said originally, as much a I like bows, I can't see someone using one with much effect against modern soldiers. But in saying that,if for some reason you needed to defend yourself against civilians ( yeah I know this sounds almost SHTF ) and a bow is all you had access to ( not likely in USA, but there are other countries !) I can see some sort of "tactical" archery training being of some use. To me that training would be more about knowing when not to use it,and how to gain best use of it when you can use it. But we're sort of reaching the realms of fantasy here too,and that's something I was trying to avoid as I'm not a computer game playing teenage dreamer,I'm quite practical,just trying to articulate something I feel is either overlooked,or is portrayed in an extremely fantastical manner. Oh and when I say civilians I guess what I mean is non military,not mum and dad down the street.
Post by Timo Nieminen on Sept 9, 2014 21:07:21 GMT
bigpete wrote So what do you guys think? Can you see any use of archery in this day and age as a combat technique? My thoughts are that it is similar to sword play, in that it is certainly deadly,but would have limited applications.
On the battlefield, bows were competitive against muzzle-loading muskets (and in places, were successfully used alongside good muskets for well over a century). Breech-loading cartridge rifle makes bows obsolete on the battlefield. Sure, now and then, people have used them successfully, but that's your "limited applications".
"In addition to being efficient, all pole arms were quite nice to look at." - Cherney Berg, A hideous history of weapons, Collier 1963.
if it's what you have it could be used arrows have killed a lot of people over the years.as to being quiet use a well tuned long bow or other tradition bows and their very quiet. also you can't go get you bullet back and reuse it well in muzzle loading it could be done.in a hot war zone I agree it would be a bad choice but as weapon for sneaking around and trying to keep a low profile it's a good choice you can hunt game have no one hear you.I live in the USA and you bet I have a bow.an if there is more then one of you working together one carries a bow the other a rifle.the bow is a fine weapon an I sure wouldn't want to get hit by and arrow.bad enough to look down and see a hole and blood coming out I think it's even worse to look down and see something sticking out of you.
DUTY CAN BE HEAVY AS A MOUNTAIN OR AS LIGHT AS A FEATHER
Could you see any use in training with a bow just in case? Like I say I watched those Ares Tactical vids and personally thought they were pretty far fetched, but I can certain things like speed loading and learning to shoot right and left handed in various positions as well as from a distance greater than 20m ( where a lot of bow hunting action happens) could be useful. I did try shooting at a small traffic cone yesterday from 110m let's just say you'd be pretty safe lol but at 55, while I didn't hit it every shot I was close enough that I would have hit a man sized object evey time,and that was with me firing an arrow approximately every 3-4 seconds. I did start working on a technique that w allowing me to get 2 aimed shots off in 3 seconds from 20m but it needs refining:-) a lot of refining lol. Actually thought it might give me an edge when fox wwhistling. I guess I'm not really believing that a bow is a great combat choice these days,more trying to explore the possibilities of developing a realistic training routine (?) for a just in case scenario. In my mind you'd need to practice several things, speed loading and shooting,shooting right and left handed so as to make best use of cover,shooting from a longer distance,and shooting a bow/arrow combo that will be effective. Oh and just developing a load out system that you can actually use. I'm thinking the ability to carry lots of arrows in a way that doesn't impede movement too much,and having a strong simple bow that can be "tucked" way somewhere when not in use so that your hands are free to o other stuff. Any way it really is diving into the realm of fantasy a bit,but if you have anything o add or are working on a similar thing chime in ! :-)
Dapper Blades wrote And with the stealth approach, it's not like bows are even close to silent like some video games depict.
Not sure how video games depict bows. But they can be pretty damn quite if you know how to make them so.
My Samick Sage is whisper quiet due to llama wool string silencers and Stiktammer limb silencers. The combo makes the bow super quiet to the point of me standing there right next to the thing releasing barely hearing anything.
Now the bigger problem I would say for stealth is arrow rattle in a quiver, but that is easily solved with a bow quiver. I have an 8 arrow bow quiver, no rattle of loose arrows. And with a decent pad on your bow shelf no noise from the arrow against the bow. Leaving the nocking the largest sound. Not a very loud sound btw.
However, with all that does it make the bow and arrow a good weapon for modern applications. Not really. Unless your going for the psychological WTF is that guy holding factor. Even then that is not enough pay off. The cumbersome issue of arrows, the size of a bow, the slow reload speed, etc all make it a poor choice as a modern weapon.
Now if we are talking SHTF weapon for hunting, the bow is awesome. Preferably traditional so it is more in line for hand made arrows. The quiet shooting of game without giving your position away in a SHTF scenario makes the bow a great option. Though even then I would still suggest having and carrying a rifle that can shoot further than a bow and with faster reload than a bow, in case you do get into a fire fight with marauders. Bow for hunting, rifle for defense.
My favorite quotes from Rorschach from the comic Watchmen
"Once a man has seen society's black underbelly, he can never turn his back on it. Never pretend, like you do, that it doesn't exist."
"None of you seem to understand. I'm not locked in here with you. You're locked in here with *ME*!"
I know that there are bows that can put an arrow through bullet proof glass, so I wouldn't be surprised if one could punch through a ceramic plate. The arrow weighs more than the bullet, so has more mass (momentum) behind the point. While a hot malleable bullet will flatten on impact, the rigid arrow tends to punch through.
Bows make very little noise, so there can be some applications where that may come in handy -- but other than that I think the options are limited.
I love bows, any kind. For survival and zombie situation bow would be the best especially if you can make your own arrows Combat... You can make a bow really silent with tuning and noise dampeners but then you can silence a gun or a rifle too.
A few points off the last few posts . Bow quivers can actually make your bow quieter. I use strap on quivers on my bows and the rubber mount and weight has made at least 2 of my bows quieter,the others stayed the same. But some quivers are absolutely terrible noise makers. As for penetrating ceramic body armor,I'd highly doubt it,if armour piercing 7.62 rounds won't do it. I've shot completely thru 8" gum trees with 7.62 fmj rounds,and I'm yet to see any hand drawn and fired bow do the same. As fr silenced firearms,in reality they are quite a bit louder than expected. The quietest bows I've heard are easily quieter than the admittedly very few suppressed firearms I've heard. Plus the noise of a bow is different and "soft" enough that its pretty easily dismissed or covered by other sounds. So I guess its like anything,there are advantages and disadvantages . My personal thoughts for possible combat use bow? A horse bow and a centred backquiver with bodkin style pointed arrows with around 70# draw weight. Horse bow because its short reasonably fast and can be shot either side of the riser. Centred backquiver so that arrows can be drawn with either hand, and you can carry a lot of arrows. Bodkin points because you may need the extra penetrtion ,you don't really need to open a massive wound channel to slow someone up,and they would be easier and quicker to draw from the quiver. And 70# or there about to help with distance and penetrtion as well.
Well if you use the bow like this; then bow > anything else Turkish/Hun cavalry archers were the most deadly force during the Hun invasion of Asia minor and Europe. (side note: Hungary is actually found by Attila the Hun so Turkish/Hungarian bows are also the same)
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