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Post by William Swiger on Mar 11, 2014 5:23:03 GMT
I have a few antique/old sabers and was wondering how far you clean the ones you own? Not looking at doing anything to a priceless antique but the sub-1000 ones. I have used a polishing compound on the blades/steel hilts and brasso on the brass hilts before but never cleaned off with different grits of sandpaper. I have sharpened a few of them.
Seeing what others do with their swords.
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Post by Dave Kelly on Mar 11, 2014 5:54:51 GMT
It runs the gamut. I have even gone to the point of taking a dremel to a German M1852 to destroy a localized, very bad rust bloom and then sanded the area back down to blend it into the rest of the hilt. Polish and conservation will get you down to about 40% restoration. The deep seated darkened patches will respond to chems. Uhlan described for us a baking soda compress that will bleach out the the rust, but it tarnishes the surface to a slate grey that isn't appealing.
Brass I'll almost always polish and leave it at that. Have only resorted to sanding if an accessible surface has a really nasty corrosion (flat tannish burned look ) that doesn't respond to chems.
If you don't know what you're doing don't do it.
Collection ethos varies by country. Some collectors reject any refurbed swords for their collections. I like a refurbed, serviceable weapon.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Mar 11, 2014 6:56:06 GMT
Quote: ,, Uhlan described for us a baking soda compress that will bleach out the the rust, but it tarnishes the surface to a slate grey that isn't appealing''.
One: the soda does not bleach, it dries out. Black spots will reveal the rust underneath. It will be powdery and easy to remove with a small bronze brush. Once the blade is done and waxed or oiled, those spots will be dark again, but free of rust. There is no discolouration. Soda will not affect the clean steel. Therefore it can be used locally, as I did with the Glave posted in my piece under Edit 2. Only Bleach will bleach. The colour ,,slate gray'' you are referring to is what is under the rust in the black spots. Has allways been there. Not the work of soda. Anyway, oil or wax,as I said , will colour this ,,slate grey'' dark again, due to interference with light, not by any secret working from oil to steel, since oil or wax does not colour steel. It only looks that way. I hoped this was clear, but if my post was not clear about this, I will edit it to make it so. My attitude to conservation and restoration is this: I will do anything proper to conserve the object of which I am the guardian, custodian. Buying an antique sabre does give me the right to hold it, play with and study it, but also the duty to maintain it for future generations. I will never really OWN it. It is in my hands only for a short while before I croke, so I have to do my best to at least pass it on in a good state of conservation. I handle stuff that is thousands of years old. It will not be destroyed or harmed on my watch. Not by me, not by anyone else, not by some loony collectors hype of the day. Period. Cheers.
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Post by Deepbluedave on Mar 11, 2014 7:40:38 GMT
I really like the idea of an old sword, something that has travelled through time to meet up with me now. This does not mean I want it to be a pile of rust, I just won't buy something that has been left to rust or is falling apart, how can you admire a weapon and get a feel for it if it is too fragile for you to pick up, there is a lot of nice 19th and early 20th century swords available in good condition these are the ones I'm interested in, if a sword is older that that it is most likely going to be out of my price range. Edit... yes I do clean the blades, you would be surprised what you can do with a scotch-brite pad and some elbow grease, though I don't sharpen them as I have modern replicas if I need to cut stuff up, I epoxy the guards so they can be handled safely if they need it, and clean the bronze as well as replace the wire if it is missing I prefer my swords to be in as good condition as I can make them.
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Post by william m on Mar 11, 2014 8:39:51 GMT
On most of my pieces I just treat the surface rust with a non-abrasive polish such as MAAS, which is fantastic. On those with little value to collector/historical significance where they are extremely rusty I have done some light hybrid polishing in the past to good effect, though of course you can not do this on anything with etching or gilt/blue.
I have never sharpened any of my antique swords as I don’t see the point. They have been blunt for hundreds of years, who am I to change that. Also I don’t cut with them so it’s safer to keep them blunt.
I have never polished the brassy,bronzy hilts of my swords as they quite often don’t need it. I like them with a bit of patina instead of glowingly bright and shiney. As you probably know the British sabers have gilted hilts, so you cannot polish them without damage.
I don’t do much of this anymore as the stuff I tend to buy these days doesn’t need it as I don’t have the time anymore for extensive restoration. Antique swords in Europe are pretty cheap as most of my sabers were bought around the £200 mark, which makes them quite a bit cheaper than collecting the modern stuff. Especially as the antique swords do not use their value.
Like Ulahn says, we are only temporary keepers of these antique swords.
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Post by Dave Kelly on Mar 11, 2014 10:46:13 GMT
I flunked chemistry. The error is mine, not that of the teacher. My understanding of your and the description of others I have talked to about the results of rust removal I have mispercieved. Will not comment upon again until have had the opportunity to try myself. :oops:
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2014 11:02:16 GMT
Polishing is a product of abrasion. MAAS polish contains calcinated alumina, therefore abrasive. AFAIK, all polishing compounds have some abrasive component. Picreator de-corroder does leave a grey color which can be then made bright through "polishing"
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Post by william m on Mar 11, 2014 11:07:29 GMT
Yikes, OK thanks for that edelweiss. I thought MAAS worked chemically to remove grime and the such as it always gave a high shine and not a matt finish like auto-sol would.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Mar 11, 2014 12:11:26 GMT
To Dave Kelly: I hope my comment did not come over as harsh. I did not mean it to be so. It was quite early in the morning, so my coffee level was still low, which, as any coffee junky knows, makes for an ever so slightly ,,prickly'' behaviour. Half a gallon later I am really a very nice guy, honest. :mrgreen: I hope you will find the soda treatment satisfactory. It worked for me. As to polishing: I do not see any harm in that, as long as one understands that sabres are not katana. Nickle plated blades are better of just cleaned and darks spots examined, so rust will not crawl further under the plate. Some people replate blade and scabbard, but more often as not this new plate is left too shiny. Plain steel blades were polished to a certain degree only and as long as the lines of the blade are not blurred by a new polish, to make the blade presentable and cleaner is commendable in my view. Mothers, light steelwool, some sandpaper to remove newer scratches if possible, I use them all. I just have to remind myself constantly though not to overdo it and to leave as much of the antique finish as is possible. As an aside, I find olive oil to work beautifully on horn or bone grips. Just a droplet on a swab, those cottonwool things on a little stick that come in boxes at the local drugstore, works wonders. It feeds the horn/bone, cleans it and restores the lustre. Watch out for the metal wire though, the olive oil is slightly acidic, so could ,,green'' the copper/brass. I have done several grips now and will keep an eye on this happening. To william m: If you ever want to clean the gilded hilts of the Brits, I wrote a post on that: Cleaning antique gilded hilts. Oh, I almost forgot: most sabres I encountered were not really sharp at all. I have one, the Imp. German Cav. Off. that was sharpened,,in the field''. Personally, I will not sharpen the blade when dull is its ,,natural'' state. Replicas are a different matter though. Cheers.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2014 14:08:56 GMT
Most products list an MSDS (material safety data sheet).
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Post by william m on Mar 11, 2014 14:23:57 GMT
Careful though, that stuff is acidic!
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Post by Voltan on Mar 11, 2014 19:02:43 GMT
I used some Metal Glo to get rid of some of the dirt & grime that was on my antique Qaddara when it was given to me. I also touched up the edge, but not much as it was pretty sharp already.
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Post by frankthebunny on Mar 11, 2014 19:19:13 GMT
I've had good luck removing rust (from light to heavy) by soaking or damping the area using vinegar. This will etch your blade and turn it light grey which can then be removed with some Mothers polish. Removing the rust will not remove/fix any pitting that may have occurred. Duration depends on how much rust there is. I try to avoid scrubbing the vinegar on since the fragments of rust might scratch your blade.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Mar 11, 2014 20:53:27 GMT
Though vinegar does remove rust, as described above, it ,,pickles'' the steel. That is seen as grey on a steel surface. The first layer of the steel molecules goes into resistance mode, hence the colour. Call it a rash for humans, like after shaving. The skin gets iritated. Even stainless behaves this way. After the use of vinegar the blade is very prone to rust. One better oil or wax the blade directly, or else. Other thing is: vinegar is a liquid and as such hard to control where it flows. Or one has to seal off an area where it will be used with wax to stem the flow. Damping a blade with it is a thing I would never, ever, do. All metal parts will be affected. Bronze, steel or silver hilt parts will be affected. It will seep into places you did not know existed, untill after a couple of hours or days, depending on the humidity, rust will occure in places hard to reach without taking the sabre apart. Vinegar is good for a lot of things but not this one. The soda mud can be used locally, it does not flow and it does not leave any marks on the steel. The rust will turn powdery, easely removed from deeper, pitted areas with a small bronze brush. Sometimes a stiff, small, paintbrush will do and a toothpick or needle glued to a paintbrush handle will be good for stubborn stuff in the deepest of recesses. I used to work like that, bend over the 20x magnifier for hours, exterminating the most ruthless form of rust, bronze cancer. And even after that and the standard silver nitrate treatment it can come back, like some vampire rising from the grave. One forgotten speck of the bloom is enough and oh horror, it does infect all other bronze in the neighbourhood. That bloom is airborn. Makes for interesting scenes in many a collection. :mrgreen: Cheers.
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Post by frankthebunny on Mar 11, 2014 22:23:17 GMT
I've used that method many times and have not run into any problems so far. I oil the pieces (as usual) after final cleaning and have had no rust return and I've even just rinsed a steel tsuba (no oil) after removing a lot of rust and it's still rust free weeks after. It's worked well for me but I'm not pushing it on anyone, use discretion
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Mar 12, 2014 6:31:34 GMT
A katana is easely pulled apart. They are made to be serviced and maintained ,,in the field'' as it were. All parts are easy to clean also. A sabre one cannot pull apart and except for the grip, it is all metal of one kind or another. The hilts have complicated forms, not easy to reach while cleaning. Lots of nooks and crannies, ideal for nasty stuff to happen and the effect of vinegar, in what ever form, straight from the bottle or in droplets from condensation while ,,damping'', on the bone or horn, even the often dryed out wood and leather/sagreen can be very negative, not to speak of the wire on the grips, which will corrode. The only way to neutralise any form of acid for 100%, is to dunk the whole object treated with them in a bath of strong ammonia, leave it there for some time and scrub the hell out of it, also with ammonia, to get the ammonia into the air pockets that will be there because of the complicated design of hilts and the relief of the decoration on hilts and etched or multi fullered blades, which cannot be done with a sabre. It is well known in the field that acids will remain in the pores of the iron / steel, under the oil or wax when ammonia is not used. When the oil or wax is removed and the steel is exposed to oxygen, so is the minute amount of remaining acid and the whole process is activated again. With katana not such a big deal, with sabres and any other peened weapon it is. In the end, people can and will do whatever they want, but as a longtime conservation and restoration worker I advise against using acid in situations where one cannot for 100% control it. Cheers.
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Post by althesmith on Oct 13, 2017 0:43:03 GMT
Would you mind letting me know your baking soda "recipe"?
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Scott
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Post by Scott on Oct 13, 2017 1:05:29 GMT
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Oct 13, 2017 5:38:59 GMT
Water and baking soda paste works. Water and household soda works too, though much slower. I did not see any negative effects. What I did not like was the mess both made, so now I clean gild with water and ammonia which I paint on with a small artists brush. The cheap Chinese variety like $0,99 for three in a pack. Works good. Water and baking soda works good on large rust spots on blades too. It cuts all the fat in the rust. But after that you'll need sand paper to finish and clean up. I think one cannot avoid that. I like my blades smooth and without pitting if possible. So I sand and by hand, so material loss is minimal. 3M 80 grid, sometimes 60 grid, 120, 180, 240, 400, 600, 3M brown mat, grey mat, coarse steel wool, middle steel wool and finish with 0000. all stages with a drop of oil. After 240 stage I now use a coarse valve polishing powder which I mix with a drop of oil to get a paste and polish out remaining scratches. Any deep scratches will show up and get rid off with 240 or 180. Sometimes I can skip the 400 and 600 and go directly to the mats. It is all a lot of work but I like it. It also gives me a chance to clean up the lines as they are often washed out. Repeated cleaning will do that. Often fine sand was used to make blades shine again, so blades can look kinda melted, like a Windlass blade. There is no magical compound that will transform a rusty blade to how it was before the effects of neglect and decennia of general bad stewardship set in. You need to invest some serious energy. How far you want to take it is up to you. Some see the effects of bad stewardship, get afraid and call it beautiful patina and history. I call this a copout. Bad stewardship has nothing to do with history, or it should be the history of neglect. Most sabres have no history at all as they never went into battle anyway. Most blades just went from the armoury stock straight into the market. Blades with history do not sell as they are chopped up, bend out of wack, stamped into the mud and such. As you probably understand right now I get a little p*ssed when the patina lovers start chanting their tired old songs.
Cheers.
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Post by pellius on Oct 13, 2017 14:56:58 GMT
I've only recently dipped my toes into the antique sword market - strictly lower end (but reasonably nice) items from the Nineteenth and early Twentieth Centuries. I own a few modern swords, and I feel pretty comfortable in knowing how to maintain and preserve them. However, as a beginner, it has been tough to get a feel for what is "appropriate" for antiques (beyond simple preservation). For example, it would apparently be a tremendous mistake to clean and polish up the tang of an antique katana. I understand the common advice to basically do whatever I like, and rely on my own judgment regarding my own stuff. However, a lack of experience and knowledge makes it tough to have lots of confidence in the current state of my judgment. After all, my knowledge and understanding of swords in general has changed dramatically after just a couple of years of active learning. Anyway, thanks for the insight and information. btw, I thought that was a particularly interesting opinion regarding "blades with history" and patina. It seems obvious once I read it, but I somehow didn't really think of that in the face of so much written about patina, preservation, etc. Despite knowing that using a sword inevitably leads to affecting and eventually damaging the sword, I still seemed to be looking for a (magical) pristine yet unrestored antique in new condition and with an historically significant history (maybe even ... used in battle), all for a very modest price. Beginners...
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