Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
|
Post by Uhlan on Jan 29, 2014 1:09:48 GMT
So, got me another one. This time the Mle. 1822 LCO and in pristine condition too. Me happy! Before I go on, I would like to bring to your attention this site: swordscollection.blogspot.nl/201 ... -1822.html Wonderful pictures of this gentlemans collection, with historic background and whatnot. Really worth the trouble. I could easely have copied his piece on the Mle. 1822, but this, I feel, would be ,,not done''. So, give our brother in collecting some traffic, it is worth the effort. By the way, mine is the top and biggie model. That settled, I would like to do the numbers on my newest, bested, girlfriend, so here we go: Blade length : 92 cm, double fullered. Blade width at ricasso: 29.5 mm. Thickness at ricasso: 9 mm. Blade width at POB : 27 mm. Thickness at POB : 7.5 mm Blade with at CoP : 23 mm. Thickness at CoP : 4 mm. At this point the false edge starts. Weight of the sabre : 940 gm . Weight of the scabbard : 360 gm. Marks: On the spine: Coulaux & Cie Klingenthal. On the ricasso: Oval with G and oval with C. Drag marked with 8. According to this site, this means a build around 1875: klingenthal.chez.com/presentation_marquages.htmSome history of French sword makers Chatellerault: users.skynet.be/euro-swords/chatellerault.htmand some more inspection marks: www.smallwebs.com/Swords/FrenchI ... stamps.htm This being an Officers saber it was privatly ordered and so marked at the underside of the beak: G. BARRE a Paris. Condition: Some gilding remains here and there in the nooks and crannies. The brass has a good patina and is cast well: no blowholes and has sharp detail. The blade is straight and virtually as new. Needs some cleaning, but that is all. The grip is made from horn, sits tight, but has two small chips, to be repaired with hard wax of the same colour. The wire is intact, but is a single strand. It seems Cavalry had the habit of removing the wire, so I have to see whether it is original and complete. The leather thingy at the ricasso is in good condition, just needs some oil and good cleaning under it where a lot of verde gris sits. The scabbard is dent free, though patinated and has fine pitting, but can easely be cleaned up. The same for the drag. Cannot find any residue of nickel plate at the moment and I do not know whether these scabbards were plated at all at the time. So, here are the pictures: In the hope you enjoyed this little post, I sign, cheers, Ulahn. Edit. Here is a picture of a Mle. 1822 Trouper with its sword knot. I hope someone will be able to say which type of knot this is:
|
|
|
Post by Kilted Cossack on Jan 29, 2014 3:57:53 GMT
That's an excellent blog! He has a fine collection of old steel, well photographed and well described.
I need to dig out my 1822 and photograph it some more. Mine is, hands down, the best feeling sword I own. (I would like to get a slightly shorter infantry officer's model, although I'm sure I'd appreciate the full 36" of blade if I was on horseback.)
|
|
Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
|
Post by Uhlan on Jan 29, 2014 4:54:30 GMT
Yes, it is a great source and those pictures are beautiful. I am partial to the Mle 1845 Infantry and Googling around I found all seizes of blades, some as short as my Navy, 70 cm, so it should be possible to get a good seized one in your range. Also the first and last Art Nouveau saber,the Mle 1896 Infantry Off. has my fancy. For this model they arranged to have the hilt designed by some Prof from the Academie. The old guard must have fainted and there could have been a lot of grumping and arhumping, but I think it is wonderful. Where the Mle 1822 has some sort of plantlive arrangement on the beak, this one has a beautiful Medusa head, very detailed and well done and sort of tentacles on the outside of the bars. The off. Sup. 1845 has the coolest blade, three fullers! The 1896 has that long straight blade that harkens back to older times, I forgot the name for that sort of blade. Anyway, thanks for your reaction.
|
|
|
Post by Dave Kelly on Jan 29, 2014 6:48:43 GMT
Congratulations Ulahn, another lovely purchase. The knot on your enlisted light is a french regulation enlisted cav knot from 1855 to the WWI. Prior to that they were white buff. Officer knots tended to be fancy. Same as several of the more expensive gold portapees at Kult of Athena or the cord and thread cascades like the one I put on the Chasseur a Cheval officers sabre. From 1880 on French Cav swords, like other countries became less relevant. The 1882 blade is almost pure thruster, little or no percussive capability i the straight light blade. ( Same blade type is used in the Spanish 1907 "Peurto Segura". ) Beside the beautiful 1845/55 Infantry sabre, one I again strongly recommend is the M1829 Field Artillery Sabre. This is retro in a lot of way. Sturdy finely tapered blade. Russians adopted it as their own dragoon sabre for 30 years. US Army adopted it as the M1840 FA sabre. ( Civil War US versions are overly expensive, watch for Klingenthal/Chattelrault ones. )
|
|
Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
|
Post by Uhlan on Jan 29, 2014 7:42:13 GMT
Dave, thanks for the compliment. The leather enlisted knot looks like the Japanese one and what do you think of these: stores.ebay.ca/uniform-store-lon ... 34.c0.m322 Probably made in Pakistan and from maylar or some such, but nicely priced, altough natural fibers age better. The knots from Mr. Guinhut are much better in many ways, but oh boy are they expensive. Must say though, looking at your picture, that a sword like that deserves that kind of knot and outlay. Tomorrow I will go and have a look at the M 1829 Field Artillery saber. When the Russian Dragoons carried a blade like that, it must have been good. And I still cannot remember the name of the sort of blade the Mle 1896 had. It starts with a P and was in use in the Eastern parts of Europe. Long thruster. Gah, my brain is mush. I am going to sleep now. Dave, thanks for the information. Cheers, Ulahn.
|
|
|
Post by Kilted Cossack on Jan 29, 2014 8:40:08 GMT
Palash?
|
|
|
Post by Dave Kelly on Jan 29, 2014 8:43:45 GMT
Uniform Store is a front for Pakistani marketers. Leather quality is light weight. Okay for window dressing, but not very durable. Pay for what you get. I use several of these myself.
My stand in for french knots was an ebay seller from Argentina. Their cavalry knots were modeled on the French, a bit downsized. Unfortunately the recession has caused him to drop off the net. Haven't seen any other Argentine seller since.
|
|
|
Post by Dave Kelly on Jan 29, 2014 8:45:29 GMT
Any basket hilted, straight bladed sword falls into the category of a Palash.
|
|
Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
|
Post by Uhlan on Jan 29, 2014 14:05:32 GMT
Kilted Cossack: Yup, that is the one. The Mle. 1896 Inf. was referenced as such and it has a symmetrical basket. It really stands out from the crowd, design wise that is. Was not Deepblue Dave looking for a lefthander? Well, this could be the one, bit pricy though. How it handles I do not know. Thanks for aiding my befuddled brain. Dave: Sorry to hear that the Argentine gentleman fell victim to the recession. I will let the Pakistany knots pass for now and will be trying to find something better. Maybe the Manufactures de la Grande Armee can help. Cheers, Ulahn.
Edit: To wake myself up, I have been swinging the sabre around for a while. It has has ample room for the open grip, thumb on the beak, even with gloves on. Found that the little rim on the pommel has a function too. It acts like a stopper for the mouse of the hand. Kilted Cossack, you are right. For such a long sword it handles very well. One could say it even is very fast. The old Dragoon needs much more muscle. I concur it had a different function, but still. Cheers, Ulahn.
Edit: On the drag I found two more marks: C and G on the, what the Japanese would call, ,,Public'' side. The other, ,,inner'' side has the 8 in an oblong octagonial impression. The scabbard is very dark grey with black areas. Sanded a little spot under the drag and red rust was present on the cloth when I wiped it. So, what should I do? Sand down the lot? The grey-black patina is not unpleasant to look at, but I have the feeling stuff is going on underneath and an oil coat does not cut it. Also, whatever I do to it, it will never be in an as issued state again, only brighter with some deeper pits here and there, like Daves scabbard, the top one, I hope. Any suggestions, anyone?
|
|
|
Post by Dave Kelly on Jan 31, 2014 8:18:24 GMT
I don't have the tools to restore things, but do tend to police up as best I can. Of late I will take simichrome (or wenol) and super fine steel wool and work the scabbard over three or four times. If it buffs out clean I stop. Then I take some gun cleaning oil ( MIlitec now ) and wipe down the metal several times to further break down residues and police up grit. Usually stop there. Sometimes I buff it out and overspray with automotive silicon.
Works for me.
Anyone has a better solution I'm all ears.
(Understand old school conservers would apply and wipe Johnsons paste wax until it came up clean. Tried it. Nice sheen, but not very cleaned up. )
|
|
Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
|
Post by Uhlan on Jan 31, 2014 13:57:16 GMT
Thanks. I will try your suggestions. Cheers, Ulahn.
|
|
|
Post by Deepbluedave on Jan 31, 2014 15:11:03 GMT
Hey Ulahn, I took Dave K's advice and got myself a pair of 1829 Artillery Sabre's, the simpler guard is great for lefties.
|
|
Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
|
Post by Uhlan on Jan 31, 2014 19:43:26 GMT
Hello DB Dave. They look very good. All the wire, grips look good, no dents in the scabbards. Sound blades too. You do not waste time do you? Ideal for lefties I should think. I see the upper one has a different scabbard and marks on the guard? Both early, with the double rings? Would be nice if you had the time to review them and list the makers marks and such. Who knows, we might have a compendium in the making here on the forum. The scabbard of the lower one looks like mine, patina wise. Will you be doing work on it? If so, I would be much obliged if you published the what and how. Too many people, for lack of knowledge, take such a scabbard to the grinder and conservation tips for this kind of job are hard to find on the net, if at all. I hope they serve you well. Cheers, Ulahn.
Edited this post to make it clear I was answering DB Dave. Not Dave. All them Daves floating around on here make me dizzy. When I am dizzy, that pisses me off, so I forget my name. Which makes me dizzy. Argh.
|
|
|
Post by Dave Kelly on Jan 31, 2014 20:12:39 GMT
Yup; that was a quickie. :lol:
Two excellent examples. Prime years 1837 and 38. The rarity is to find an early production year with a Klingenthal mark on it. Reason I have two is because the top one is officer grade ( note the engraved flourishes on the sword ).
Found your photostream link and got side tracked into all your picks there of the "family". Beautiful. Bloody addictive hobby we gots, what? :mrgreen:
|
|
Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
|
Post by Uhlan on Feb 1, 2014 0:32:39 GMT
To Dave K: You mean to say some of the early sabers went unmarked or the blades were made at Solingen or something? Or is this an issue with this model only? I thought Klingenthal started way back in the 18th century as suppliers to the French. And even Officers sabers were marked, though not in full.
|
|
|
Post by Dave Kelly on Feb 1, 2014 2:44:43 GMT
Klingenthal held the royal charter as primary factor for French swords until 1831 when production was turned over to the national arsenal at Chattelrault. It took 4 years to complete the transition so there is some overlap. Klingenthal didn't stop doing subcontracts for the french government until the Franco Prussian War, and for quite sometime after 1870 they were still doing custom work for officers.
|
|
Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
|
Post by Uhlan on Feb 1, 2014 5:14:54 GMT
Yes, see my Mle. 1822. Must have been a major crisis in Alsace. Lots of redunded workers / specialists, also a lot who moved to the new factory I hope. At the time the impact must have been like shutting down Ford MC and GM combined.
|
|