Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Jan 15, 2014 2:27:25 GMT
Arrived this afternoon, after some Hin und Wider, what with end of year festivities, closed everything and sparse communication, but still, it's here. Photo's are from the seller, no camera as of yet. I must say, it is a very nice little sabre. Clocks in at 620 grams and has a blade length of 70 cm. POB is 7.5 cm, still a pipeback model, double grooved. Total length is 85 cm. Very nice bronze hilt with astonishing detail and a horn grip in perfect condition. Sorry to say, it has no scabbard, but it should be possible to find one or at least the fittings for this particular model. This model has it's origins during the reign of Louis Philippe and had a crown on the hilt and scabbard fittings were now is an ancre, since the chap was a Bourbon. He got kicked out and it was ancres instead of crowns. The model I show here is from 1855, the time Napoleon III was in power. Napoleon was no Bourbon, so ancres it was and he did not change the original design very much. This particular sabre has two cables going through the ancre loop and this I had not seen before. Also what later becomes a dolphin head is still a seamonster, kinda dragon/snake and its body formes the upper boarder of the hiltcup. This in later models was changed to a cable. The detail is so fine that the scales of the body can be seen. Together with all kinds of plant life, scrolling and whatnot, the hilt makes for a wonderous fantasy world. The knuckle bow has also something different from other models. Here the design is broken by a band or ring. Over the years this band gets wider. Read somewhere that the reason French Naval sabres were so elaborate and over the top, was that the Navy often made first contact with soon to be French subjects, so it was important to make a good show. The sabre is marked on the forte: Coulaux et Cie a Klingenthal. Inspectionmarks are two: oval with C and an oval with G under star. I have tried to find them but though the site I have has lots of French marks, it stops for Coulaux before 1837 and for 1855 I cannot find any. The photo's are not super but we will have to make do. Everytime I conquer my adverse sentiments regarding cameras and decide to get one, a sabre pops up, so there. The design of 1832 is more sober. Louis Philippe in 1837 went GaGa and over the years it was sobered up more and more. The model of today is but a shadow of it's former glory, if I may say so. Due to ImageShack problems I cannot upload differenes designs, but Google Images could help those interested to see the decline from GaGa to the Singing Nun. Cheers, Ulahn.
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Post by William Swiger on Jan 15, 2014 2:52:13 GMT
Nice little sabre. Really like the hilt detail.
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Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
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Post by Uhlan on Jan 15, 2014 6:59:03 GMT
Thanks for your response. It feels almost weightless when handled too. A very nifty design hidden under a boatload of decoration. The only thing nagging me is the little ring on the grip. I think it is a gide for the sword knot, but without the knot cord it bites in my finger. Maybe it ought to be used as support for the finger tip in an open grip. Got to get a sword knot and find out.
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Post by Deepbluedave on Jan 15, 2014 13:52:46 GMT
Very Nice Ulahn, where did you purchase it from, I have been looking around at French sabres and being a leftie prefer the simpler guards,
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Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
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Post by Uhlan on Jan 15, 2014 19:45:56 GMT
Hello Deepbluedave. I bought it from one of the many Euro antiques sites. This makes sence if one lives there, regarding shipping fees. Your name, to me, suggests a connection with the southern states of N. America or a statement of political afilliation, as in Democrat, also suggesting an American connection, so these fees could be rather high. Also the dollar versus the Euro exchange rate is not working out well for people outside of the Euro zone, at the moment. As a leftie you will have a hard time finding a sabre that will suit you. The credo of the old armies was: go with the program, or go peel potatos. I think one would need a type of sabre with a kind of symetrical guard. I keep seeing this Argentinian sabre Mr. Kelly once showed, but I could be dead wrong. It is somewhere in his sticky posts. Dress sabres are less bulky, but also less,well, sabre and I have this notion you are looking for a real, no nonsense fighting implement and that is a tough call. Maybe Mr. Kelly or Pinotte have some toughts on this subject. They are the local sabre sages after all. Cheers, Ulahn.
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Post by Ulrich on Jan 15, 2014 20:44:35 GMT
I didn't really know it, but I'd guess the ring is for an index finger loop and the hole at the bottom of the d-guard is for the sword knot.
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Uhlan
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Posts: 3,121
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Post by Uhlan on Jan 15, 2014 22:43:45 GMT
Hello Ulrich. No, that is not true. The Navy had it a differend way to tie sword knots. One loop went through the little ring, both went through the space in the knuckle bow. This is possible because one loop can be disconnected from the knot. The sword knot was then tied to the scabbard by way of the little scallope, so the sabre could not be pulled out, nor slide out accidently. Think lots of people on few square meters, bad weather and slippery decks. Image Shack problems solved, here is a picture of a model with knot: What later on becomes a scallope is here a decorated knob, often confused with the contraption used on swords scabbards to hang the scabbard in a frog. The knob can be seen just above the ancre on the scabbard fitting. The little loop of twisted wire under the hilt, in the third picture, is just that, a left over from a previous owner to hang the sabre on the wall. Notice also that the snake cum dragon is turned into a dolphin, the outer boarder is no longer a snake body with scales, but a bar with a cable winding around it and the ring element on the knuckle bow has a elongated form. The scabbard fittings are still in the old fashion, though with slight differences also. To compare: look at the Universal Sword French Navy sabre at KOA. In this picture one sees three rings at the scabbard mouth. This also changes over time. Modern Navy sabres have only one ring and the entire fitting is devoid of decoration. Only the scallope and the ancre remain. I will see whether I can post some more photos now.
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Post by Ulrich on Jan 15, 2014 23:29:24 GMT
Ah. Havn't known nor seen that before. Thanx for sharing knowledge.
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Uhlan
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Posts: 3,121
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Post by Uhlan on Jan 16, 2014 0:21:58 GMT
Some more pictures. I could not upload pictures to I.S. because I have the habbit of deleting the original tags and write my info, thus deleting the JPG tag and I.S. no longer seeing the file for what it is and refusing to do its business. Wonders of the digital world! Notice that I gleaned all the info from the internet, so it might be wrong, since in this case the design changes were implemented by different regimes and 19th. century France rolled from Bourbon into a pletora of Republics, Napoleons and more Republics, so nobody but the greatest scholars and I am sorry to say, I am not one of them, can make head or tail of the whole, bloody, business, which is an elaborate way just to say that dating is difficult. Here we go: Three models with changes indicated. Starts with Mle 1832 at the right. Mine comes just after the model in the middle. ( I think ) and to the left a 1900'ish model to judge from the knob on the scabbard fitting, though it has double rings at the scabbard mouth (used to be three) and a ring around the end of same. Are you still with me? A Mle 1832 in close up. Notice the differences in the hilt design and the two wide fullers in the blade. Mine has one narrow and one wide fuller. Epoque Louis Philippe. Notice the cube in the knuckle bow. Another Louis Philippe variant with crown above the ancre and the ring in the knuckle bow. No snake cum dragon on the guard yet. My sabre fits right after this one. Third Republic, around 1900. Notice how the sword knot is tied and the scallope above the ancre on the scabard fitting. The whole shebang, around 1900. From around 1930. Notice the scabbard fitting. All decoration is gone, there is just one ring at the scabbard mouth, the knob changed (again), the ancre has moved up and under the ancre is just a lined boarder. Same, in close up. Some shots of scabbard furniture. Do not ask me to identify the model. It makes me wanna cry. Cheers, Ulahn.
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Post by Deepbluedave on Jan 16, 2014 3:46:06 GMT
Great photos Ulaha and thanks for the info.
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Uhlan
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Posts: 3,121
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Post by Uhlan on Jan 16, 2014 18:07:41 GMT
No problem. That is what the forum is for. Dating French sabres is made more difficult because of the habit Officers had to have their swords made by sutlers to their personal taste if they had the money. The sutlers may also have had their own blade stamps. The Klingenthal etch on the spine of French blades is just a basic dating device. The framework the General Staff tried to lay down was sometimes seen as a rule and rules are made to be broken as the old adagio says. I think the attitude in France was more relaxed in this way than in England or Germany, so one gets this confusing pletora of differences in hilt detail and in blade design and together with the changes the different regimes mixed into this brew, this makes for lots of discussion and foaming at the mouth at some French fora. It is great fun to explore all of this.
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Post by Dave Kelly on Jan 17, 2014 8:26:15 GMT
Hello Uhlan: Nice find. I really don't know squat about the particulars of naval edged weapons. klingenthal.chez.com/presentation_marquages.htmDon't know if you are using this page to find poincons. One of the better lists. The C/G combinations fall in the 1865-1880 window. It's not uncommon for military families to use "heirloom" swords passed on to relatives who may update blades to classic hilts. One of the many problems in understanding french service weapons. This isn't literally a Pipeback. Actually just a double fullered "sabre" with just as light turn of the blade. The naval and infantry officers swords developed in parrallel and are quite similar; naval hilts being more ornate and slightly smaller. ( Boarding and hand to hand combat at sea ended after the Napoleonic Wars as capital ships grew and artillery progressed in power and range. ) Naval use of leather scabbards means a lot of finds that have remnants or nothing at all. Thanx for sharing...
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Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
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Post by Uhlan on Jan 17, 2014 14:29:35 GMT
Hey Dave. Thanks for your response. Yes, I use that list and this one too: www.smallwebs.com/Swords/FrenchI ... stamps.htm and this one: users.skynet.be/euro-swords/chatellerault.htm for the history of the Manifacture. As to the updated hierloom sabres, this could be very well the case here. Sometimes I wish for a universe without the French, or that they behaved like responsible people, like Germans or accountants. On the other hand, we would not have this much fun to sort out their little messes. I thought the blade had the remnants of a pipeback because the narrow fuller starts 2mm from the spine and at the false edge the blade swells to 4 / 5 mm, so there is a sort of a bulge there. I have to re-read your sticky on pipebacks again. The main quest for this year will be to find a scabbard or a good set of fittings, so I can make one myself. Thank God there is still so much old stuff around, but getting it, that is the question. Cheers, Ulahn.
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