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Post by zentesukenVII on Nov 18, 2013 6:22:03 GMT
I have noticed swords in the production market seem to have wider blades.
My musashi bamboo has a regular width blade near the habaki, but as it extends to the kissaki the blade is not as wide. The proper term for this is "Fumbari" correct? Or "Blade Taper"?
However I am more attracted to a wider blade with a kissaki that is as wide as the blade near the habaki. Is there a particular name for this?
Thanks in advance!
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Post by randomnobody on Nov 18, 2013 6:58:42 GMT
I'm a bit rusty on my terms, but I believe "fumbari" isn't so much the whole of the taper, as it is a distinct widening of the overall taper into the machi. Most production swords are lacking in fumbari, and particularly old antiques (that have received a few polishes) will have noticeable lack, as well, having lost what they once had.
The only terms I know of for width in Japanese blades is "haba," "saki-haba" for the kissaki end, "moto-haba" for the machi end.
I am not aware of any production swords where the saki and moto haba are the same. I think Hanwei's Elite line, and possible Cheness' uh...well, I just forgot what they called theirs...the SGC? Anyway, they had wider blades with less profile taper (the only word I know to apply to what you're looking for) than more classical shapes, but still had taper.
I'm not sure what impact a lack of such taper would have on a sword, I imagine it would be quite tip-heavy, for starters. All I can say is that I've never seen one, myself. :?
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Post by dave lorrez on Nov 18, 2013 9:46:13 GMT
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Post by LastGodslayer on Nov 18, 2013 11:34:50 GMT
Nambokucho sugata was characteristics of that. Also some dotanuki were like that. I keep getting the word "houchou" because that is what it would look like... Some "kotetsu" geometry blades are also like this.
I don't believe there is a name for this. Fumbari-kareru?
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Post by zentesukenVII on Nov 18, 2013 18:35:18 GMT
Thanks for the replies. dave lorrez, I saw that article but I was still somewhat confused. I overall find a wider blade much more attractive. The kissaki on my bamboo is just so small. I really got the thought when looking at this: www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-handac ... 4ac076eab4 Notice how the yokote section is about as wide as the hamachi/munemachi? I am getting a huawei custom sword soon. The blade is based off a naginata naoshi and sports a wider profile blade (not super wide, just a hair wider than most kats) I want to be able to explain this concept to them without confusing them. Language barriers can be a female dog. Luckily they have already made the sword I am commissioning, however the forumite who had it made disappeared so we never got a review.
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Nov 19, 2013 1:32:31 GMT
The blade width is mihaba 身幅. The problem of classifying it comes with the fact that Japanese prefer to express it by impressions. When measuring actual size motohaba and sakihaba are used, but impressions are given by the whole appearance. All of the below translations are made by myself and they might be incorrect. Mihaba hiroi, which means wide blade in overall Mihaba semai, which means narrow blade in overall Mihaba hirome, which I believe means taper from base to tip. Mihaba jinjo, which I think means usual mihaba. Mihaba motosaki sa tsuku, which I believe means little to no difference from base to tip. On Heian era shape with strong taper I've read, motohaba go hiroku sakihaba ga semaku, which means Wide at motohaba narrow at sakihaba. Motohaba to sakihaba ga sukunaku, means very little taper between motohaba and sakihaba. There are wide variety of expressions which I cannot understand how to use properly yet (not sure if I've even understood the above properly). But if you are ordering a sword from a Chinese forge, I think the best option would be giving numbers or drawing/using a picture. Here are 2 blades you might like: www.seiyudo.com/ka-131212.htm , www.seiyudo.com/ka-010211.htm
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Post by frankthebunny on Nov 19, 2013 2:11:43 GMT
You might be more attracted to Samgakdo style blades if you are looking for less profile tapering. I noticed they tend to remain wider toward the kissaki but they do have a hira-zukuri type of flat grind and no yokote Attachments:
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Post by zentesukenVII on Nov 19, 2013 20:32:03 GMT
What really got me into them was the Hanwei PXL light katana. As it would turn out that it a cutting blade for mats. I imagine a wide blade like I am attracted to would be very heavy if it was a standard geometry with niku. However I am gonna request a bo-hi to lighten up the blade.
I am trying to make this sword resemble a naginata naoshi of sorts, so a wider blade is kinda imperative.
After seeing this:
I just really dig naginata naoshi now. Speaking of, are there any naginata/naoshi that are shinogi zukuri with an o-kissaki that any of you know of off hand?
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Post by randomnobody on Nov 19, 2013 20:58:52 GMT
As a general rule, no. Shinogi-zukuri was not a naginata geometry, and comparatively few naginata even had defined kissaki (with yokote) never mind o-kissaki.
The typical naginata naoshi will be kanmuri-otoshi, with occasional unokubi.
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Post by zentesukenVII on Nov 19, 2013 22:30:09 GMT
Just to clarify, kanmuri otoshi has a diamond shaped cross section along the whole blade (minus where the bo-hi is) as where a unokubi has a regular kissaki (as in the blade is diamond shaped, until the kissaki)
What about yokote? Was a geometric yokote particular to either one of these geometries?
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Post by randomnobody on Nov 19, 2013 22:43:37 GMT
No. there are examples of unokubi with yokote, not so many kanmuri-otoshi, but it was not a "feature" of either. Yokote in both cases are separate things from the sugata, which is classified otherwise. The specific blade may or may not have a yokote, but that would not change which sugata it fell under. Kanmuri-otoshi does not necessarily maintain the diamond cross section through the tip, many have distinct "ko-shinogi" for lack of a better word, where the shinogi ends behind the tip by even a half-inch or better. Here is one such: bladegathering.com/japanese-swor ... shi-katana I would post this one up for debate as to which it falls under, but note the o-kissaki: www.christies.com/lotfinder/arms ... tails.aspx My own Rawblade naoshi's kissaki (definitely kanmuri): s190.photobucket.com/user/random ... sort=3&o=2 And let's not forget this fellow: www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/Naohiro1.htmlThere are other examlpes, but I'm lazy~
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Post by zentesukenVII on Nov 19, 2013 23:07:59 GMT
Very informative random, thanks.
that first blade is absolutely wicked!
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Post by randomnobody on Nov 19, 2013 23:49:15 GMT
Yeah, I hadn't seen that one before. It's quite nice, but I'm still most fond of the Naohiro on Usagi-ya's page. That's the one I sent to James Raw to model my blade after.
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Nov 20, 2013 3:04:39 GMT
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Post by randomnobody on Nov 20, 2013 3:08:17 GMT
Good call, Jussi; nagamaki naoshi is not to be forgotten, either. :shock:
Excuse me for a few minutes while I uh...clean up...
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Post by ottomac on Jun 30, 2020 19:47:24 GMT
I have noticed swords in the production market seem to have wider blades. My musashi bamboo has a regular width blade near the habaki, but as it extends to the kissaki the blade is not as wide. The proper term for this is "Fumbari" correct? Or "Blade Taper"? However I am more attracted to a wider blade with a kissaki that is as wide as the blade near the habaki. Is there a particular name for this? Thanks in advance! here you will find a good explanation japan-forward.com/the-changes-in-the-shape-of-the-japanese-sword/
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