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Post by stickem on Aug 9, 2013 16:41:28 GMT
Yes. AISI 1095 is 'American' by definition. That's what the 'A' stands for.
So if Yao/ swordsmith666 (you know the one Rob goes on about being friends with) is located in China and states he is using AISI 1095, then he is stating the steel used to make these swords came from America. So my ? is, "Is it safe to assume he cannot be a vendor nor post here because of this statement?"
Thank you
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avery
Senior Forumite
Manufacturer/Vendor
Posts: 1,530
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Post by avery on Aug 9, 2013 17:18:57 GMT
Enough of this. Pick out micro-arguments till you're hearts content, it'll do you no good. Ricky was/is a shyster, plain and simple. The EXAMPLE he set wasn't one conducive to SBG. If you have an example of a similar member, feel free to contact the staff.
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Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Aug 9, 2013 17:20:12 GMT
The thing is he's not a vendor here is he. The A might stand for americna doesn't mean is really is.
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Post by stickem on Aug 9, 2013 19:20:20 GMT
OK Avery. Apologies for annoying you by asking questions. That wasn't my intention to anger you or any of the mods...
I thought the heart of why Ricky was banned is his claim his swords are made of AISI 1095, CPM3V, and tamahagane. The powers that be have determined this is untrue because these aren't available in China. Hence, Ricky is a shyster.
Just wanted confirmation that these claims are not to be made of swords in China. Seems like the vendors here need to know not to make these claims and the SBG Forum members need to be advised not to buy Chinese swords described as being made of these materials.
I don't have anyone specific I am ratting on, just used the Yao fellow on eBay as a handy example of someone who claims to use these materials.
But I get what you are saying and will stop asking questions to preserve the peace :)
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Daniel Dacombe
Member
Company Representative - Ronin Katana
Posts: 4,162
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Post by Daniel Dacombe on Aug 9, 2013 19:39:40 GMT
No need to apologize stickem - I am a nitpicker too. Ebay sellers make all kinds of claims about their swords - can chop iron, tamahagane, they are forge masters when really they order a few swords a year over the internet and mark them up, etc, etc. But they are on Ebay - not here. The big issue is that the SBG name tends to give legitimacy to the people "officially" posting their wares here, and we don't want those sorts of claims to start confusing the marketplace. More than one katana maker has gotten questions about why they aren't using imported American steel to make their katanas instead of "Chinese crap steel" - and that's damaging to the industry as a whole, because dishonest vendors will be able to claim that they carry something that they don't while honest ones are unable to. And the evidence we were given about no American 1095 being imported for use in the Chinese sword industry was pretty compelling. Being able to find a few words on Chinese websites using google translate is not exactly counter evidence... Many people have stated they are happy with their swords - and I hope they are! It's never fun to be sad about a purchase. But if they were being sold on their own merits and without the falsehoods/hype, then none of this would have happened. If you read on another forum - or on Facebook - that this was done because of business competition - it wasn't. took up a very tiny portion of the market and SBG - or Ronin Katana - or Hanwei, or anyone - didn't notice its existence in any meaningful way, financially speaking.
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Post by stickem on Aug 10, 2013 13:34:57 GMT
Daniel ~
Thank you for your considered reply. I think we are saying the same thing.
That said, I don't consider the question to be a nitpicky one - lol! Moreover, it seems to be what has gotten folks banned around here lately.
Please note, I am not discussing whether or not should or should not be banned. That decision is up to Paul. What is done is done.
What I am talking about is the logical implications of this for the future on SBG. If has gotten in trouble for making the false claim their swords are made from materials known to be unobtainable by in China (e.g., the steels mentioned specifically by Paul: AISI 1095, CPM3V, & tamahagane), then other sellers of swords made in China should naturally be held to this same standard.
Just making sure everyone is aware of what this means. Prevention is worth more than a cure and all that. If any future buyer/seller is making the claim on SBG his Chinese sword is made of AISI 1095, CPM3V, or tamahagane, seems like they necessarily would need to have some evidence to support this claim. They would need some sort of metallurgical analysis or something, otherwise, their claim is false, since Chinese forges (such as the one uses) do not have access to these steels and/or their cost is prohibitive to make swords from. SBG has gone to no small monetary lengths to find this out, so seems like this is an an important factor for future vendors/members to keep in mind.
Perhaps this is so obvious that some folks were misunderstanding my question. Hope it is crystal clear now in statement form.
Thanks! ~ Jeff
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Post by Lonely Wolf Forge on Aug 10, 2013 13:52:54 GMT
where exactly is this information that that American 1095 steel is "Unobtanium" to chinese forges? you can go allover google and find it and its not even that expensive, they sell it in huge doughnut rolls and in round bars ext. That being said, i know nothing about the availability of Tamahagane.
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Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Aug 10, 2013 14:57:52 GMT
Why would they import American 1095 when they have their own. It dosen't make any sense at all to importsteel you already have.
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Post by Jeffrey Ching on Aug 10, 2013 15:14:23 GMT
American 1095 isn't 'unobtanium' in China but I don't believe it is used by any forge in China. Which idiot would ship US steel to China while the 1001 foundries can make any blend you prefer (as long as you buy enough).
That said, AISI can be considered two things: 1) a standard or 2) content papers. For stuff like machinery certification or building construction you need to be able to present the steel content papers in order to get things approved.
American 1095 steel is certified steel which is probably made in China anyway. However it only becomes US steel once certain parts of the manufacturing is done in the US. Also the certification of the steel happens in the US so purchasing US steel in China is nearly impossible.
As all things in China, stuff is always being 'over-sold'. 1045 becomes 1050, 1050 becomes 1060, damascus becomes tamahagane and last but not least, T10 becomes 1095. Even in business to business this happens and unless you have the steel tested you will never know for sure. The certification will cost you some bucks but if you're spending $20K USD on steel, a couple of hundred bucks shouldn't be a problem.
The name is useless as long as the hardening is ok. Why tell people you use a certain steel while you can better spend your efforts in promoting your excellent heat treatment. The price T10 and 1095 will differ probably less than a dollar dollars per kilogram anyway.
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Post by stickem on Aug 10, 2013 18:25:47 GMT
Jeffrey ~ Thanks for weighing in with your experience. Just as a head's up, we have had this debate here on SBG before you came on board: viewtopic.php?f=32&t=15219and there are folks who will vehemently insist 1050 = 1050 everywhere and anywhere you go, T-10 always = T-10, and so on... so I don't want to get these folks riled up about this subject again. Again, not to re-open this debate, but I tend to think more like you do. This is to say in general industries will get away with whatever they can in the absence of regulation to improve their bottom line. This includes (but is not limited to) mislabeling stuff to make some $ when possible. My guess is there is less regulation in China than in the US around industry, so these types of things may be more common there than they are here. I only bring this up because Ricky made the AISI 1095 claim about his swords as a reaction to some of the shenanigans in China which occur (allegedly) in this area. Seemed to be making a case American steel in general is more reliable as far as its content goes than Chinese steel. I have no idea whether really uses AISI 1095, nor do I know the exact content of any of the swords I own from any vendor or forge. I have do have some swords and a degree in chemistry, but I ain't gonna go through the trouble and expense to figure out exactly what these are made of on an elemental level -lol! I am not the one making any of these claims, so why bother? Anyway, I think most people here recognize the best steel in the world is useless for sword making without the proper heat treatment and geometry applied to it, as you've said.
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Post by stickem on Aug 10, 2013 18:34:43 GMT
Why would Hanwei import Swedish powdered steel when they have their own powdered steel in China?
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Post by Student of Sword on Aug 10, 2013 19:09:03 GMT
In light of the new rule:
Is SBG Store going to retract the statement that T-10 steel is " high speed tungsten based?" There is no tungsten in T-10.
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kaiyo
Member
Posts: 1,201
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Post by kaiyo on Aug 11, 2013 3:47:27 GMT
i would ask a lot more questions...but im kinda áfraid to be banned
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Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Aug 11, 2013 5:07:16 GMT
Between Sweden and China there's not that little thing called the pacific ocean.
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Post by Lonely Wolf Forge on Aug 11, 2013 5:14:50 GMT
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Post by Lonely Wolf Forge on Aug 11, 2013 5:15:40 GMT
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Sean (Shadowhowler)
VIP Reviewer
Retired Moderator
No matter where you go, there you are.
Posts: 8,828
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on Aug 11, 2013 6:16:19 GMT
Whatever your trying to do Saito... I don't think its working.
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Aaron
Member
Senior Forumite
Posts: 2,369
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Post by Aaron on Aug 11, 2013 6:24:00 GMT
Embedding in this forum is turned off ;)
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Aaron
Member
Senior Forumite
Posts: 2,369
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Post by Aaron on Aug 11, 2013 6:26:07 GMT
Bah hit reply too soon, and apparently editing is turned off as well. I meant to say:
Embedding (and emoticons, and quoting) is turned off in this forum except for moderators. Kind of crappy, but that's why you'll notice all of the quotes are messed up in this topic except for the ones posted by moderators.
It should be fixed, since I don't believe it is intentional (and if it is, it's dumb).
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Post by Lancelot Chan on Aug 11, 2013 7:44:09 GMT
I don't know if my opinion matters but here's what I know.
I have a local sword making student and a good friend in Long Chuan making swords, one of the makers Huawei sells. According to them, first, the steel in China bears a different designation so a 9260 would be called something else. I think this is the case for all other steels as well. The local buyers only differentiate between two major materials, T10 and 錳鋼 (manganese steel).
And the steel sources are EXTREMELY unreliable. Inconsistency is what plagued the heat treating. High performance heat treatment is difficult to perform because of this. What inconsistency was that? If you want 1060? They'll send you 1045, pricing as 1060. 1050, 1060, whatever... they'll send you 1045, pricing as 1050, 1060.
Only a couple steel suppliers know what they were actually selling and be honest about that. A couple!!!!
And most Long Chuan makers do not have knowledge about metallurgy. They control hardness by going higher or lower temperature, and knows nothing about tempering process too. I've done plenty tests on Long Chuan swords, some were done with invitation by the makers. I talked to them and knows how much they know.
Now I may get to the nerves of some here..... If any of you want to debate about this, I won't proceed. I try not talk about this for so long, and I don't want to talk about this in the future here. This is probably the only time I talk about this in public.
There are literally only a handful of makers in China capable of doing good heat treatment, and even fewer are capable of doing "educated good heat treatment" (not by luck and guesswork). Those who can do the latter, are not local Chinese. 2 of them were from Taiwan (Fred Chen and Paul Chen). One of them studied aboard in Italy and USA for material science and engineering....
Atrim style heat treatment with lathe martensite, is just very difficult for most China makers to understand, not to mention achieving.
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