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Post by ShooterMike on May 5, 2007 3:43:46 GMT
I am happy to say that an anxiously-awaited sword arrived at my door today. I talked to Gus Trim in late March, just fishing to see if he might have any swords lying around that weren't spoken for. He had this one that wasn't sold, but it wasn't quite finished. It was back from heat treat, polished and sharpened. All he had to final-finish was the tang. This was supposed to be his first peened hilt sword, but I just asked for a standard 1312 with pommel nut as I wanted to either antique or blue the hilt components. There were some delays due to Gus' real job, and more delays and such. But I am patient, and it paid off. I think this is now my favorite sword. Don't tell the Gen2 Witham River Viking though. I have to keep them in separate rooms so they won't talk. This sword's a little out of the SBG price range at $365 full retail, but it's close. Maybe if Gus builds up a lot of excess stock he will offer an SBG discount? I haven't taken any pictures yet since I want to customize the hilt components, but I couldn't resist doing a little bottle cutting with it. And since I have a new video camera, you guys get to suffer through it with me. Please feel free to offer any criticism you'd like. I actually picked up this sword and swung it around for the first time on this video. Oh, and my left arm is not injured. This is the first time I have ever trained with a single-hand sword and I was trying to develop a little bit of the feel for where my arm would be held with a shield. In any case, feel free to watch at your own risk. And I have pretty thick skin, so fire away. ;D Bottle Cutting with Angus Trim 1312
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2007 4:30:57 GMT
lol, that was pretty cool. I liked the sword twirling theatrics at the end. I also like how you are imitating holding a shield, that is very important. You keep you left hand well placed across your body through the cut. One big problem, you need to keep your leg behind that shield too when you cut. Lead with your shield-leg, push off your sword-leg and twist the hip slightly. This way you do less work work with arm, more with you body. Only during a wrap do you step out with that sword-leg. Careful if you do wraps with a sharp sword, the blade often comes back at you.
Now that you know the sword cuts, I recommend you raise your stand so that the bottle is at your head level or even slightly above that. Practice your horizontal cuts to his head. You opponent will likely have a shield too, so your cuts need to be fine tuned at that elevation. Post more vids.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2007 5:41:28 GMT
Shootermike, I almost vomited watching your horrible form. My grandmother, bless her soul, could cut better with one of her cooking spatula...
Nah, I'm yanking your chain, very very nice video. It almost reminded me of a magic show...
S.Mike: Now I'm going to cut the bottle...
*bottle is cut*
S.Mike(picking up a completely unharmed bottle): And now it's whole again! Whee! AGAIN!!!
And so forth...
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2007 11:11:07 GMT
lol, that is a good point Adam. How do we know that he is not actualy missing and using the same waterbottle over and over again, hahaha.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2007 11:30:02 GMT
Shooter: you need to be a little bit more relaxed with both the shield arm and the cut, the way you are holding your sword is giving me the heebie jeebies. You look like you are choking up on the handle instead of holding it loose and relaxed, also you need some more practice with your sword twirling
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Post by ShooterMike on May 5, 2007 12:13:37 GMT
Tsafa, Many thanks for all the pointers. I was totally unaware that you would cut with the opposite leg from what leads with the longsword. Since this is the first time I have really done any cutting with a single-hander I just more or less used the same footwork as the longsword. I will incorporate all your suggestions. Next time I will take my shield as well. I just didn't want that complication the first few times. Oh, and the twirling at the end was an attempt to show how light and agile this sword is... And me being so happy with this sword that I was getting a little giddy! A little hoakie I know. Adam, I would only HOPE to be as good as your grandmother someday! Since I'm just a beginner, I will first aspire to be as good as one of your unborn offspring (squiggle, squiggle). Bloodwraith, Thanks for those points as well. I have a tendency to tighten up too much on these lighter swords. I was consciously holding it loosely in one of the cuts (probably the cleanly cut one). That's something I really need to concentrate on. Muchos gracias for pointing it out. I have some new video editing software. I need to look into how well this camera's video will go to slow motion. That might help me see the cutting improvement with the appropriate grip control and relaxation.
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Post by rammstein on May 5, 2007 17:07:13 GMT
I noticed that something looked qeird about your cutting stance. I thought that maybe you just prefered a crab walk ;D
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2007 20:48:19 GMT
Even with a two-hand sword. The back leg is in a position to generate more power by twisting the hip. So if you right hand is nearest the hilt ideally you will want you right leg back (just like a baseball player). You don't need to overdo it anyway, you have leverage from the two-hand handle. With a two-hand sword and your right leg back, your left leg will be exposed. You will be able to cover it with your sword because you don't have a shield in the way. You can either dip the point down in a hanging guard to defend it or just drop the hilt low and defend with the hilt and gauntlets. So with a two-hand sword one leg or the other is always exposed. Furthermore after you swing from your strong right side, you will often end up on your weaker left side. Even if you stop at the longpoint, you may still have to wind up from the left. So with a two-hand sword you must be just as good striking from you left or right and off either foot. Just recognize that one side is stronger then the other depending on you hand and foot placement. You don't want to match you weak side up against you opponents strong side and try to be forceful, you will loose.
With the single sword and shield things change. The shield both defends and restricts. Your shield side will be much better defended and you sword side will offer a much greater offensive capability. Offense and sight from the shield side will be restricted. I won't go further into that, cause I think it is clear by now.
On loosening up the grip. This is a more gray area. Looser grips allow more flexibility and agility. I have also noticed a lot of swords come flying out of people hands because if you are loose and your sword gets hit, its gone. I have also seen loose shield get knocked away so that he leg is exposed. Hitting the bottom of you opponents shield in order to make it swing to the side, will work if he holds it loosely.
The advice I try to follow is that I keep the sword loose through the windup by keeping the pinky finger and the ring finger somewhat loose but then tightening up on impact. I'm am probably still more tight then what is recommended and it probably keeps me from hitting some low angles behind the other persons shield, but then again, I have never lost my sword during combat.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2007 21:05:05 GMT
Good strikes should always be accompanied by a step(doesn't matter what kind of step) that ends in having the same leg forward as the side the cut came from. if I cut from my right side, i should step(and time that step) so that my right leg(and subsequently - my right hip) leads. Vice-versa for a cut from the left side.
The reason is that through stepping this way, the whole body turns with the cut, and particularly power comes through the hips. The power of the hips is very evident when certain drills are done(particularly winding drills) once with the arms, and then again through body positioning.
as for gripping, the pinky and ring finger should grip very firmly so the grip is strong. The forefinger and thumb should be looser to allow for ease of movement. I've never lost my sword except when in a sparring match it was forcibly disarmed or I let go on purpose as the situation demanded.
The best analogy I can imagine to how it should feel when you cut is that it should feel like you're pulling down on a rip-cord as opposed to 'pushing' the sword through the air.
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Post by rammstein on May 5, 2007 21:21:25 GMT
Adam,
That is 100% true in longsword, however it difers a bit in sword/shield. Strikes "can" place your sword side forward, but in general this is discouraged because it leaves that side of your body open. Blocking with the sword isn't recommened when you have a shield that works 18 times as well. Also, you get more power with the shield side to the front and the sword to the back, sort of like a pitcher's windup. There are many strikes that will end up with your left (if you're a lefty like me...I have no experience righty, sorry) side forword, but now your front leg will be a prime target and you either have to recover very fast, or be prepared to try and blcok with your sword. Blocking with the shield can be done, but it is fairly difficult to do in this position.
Shootermike, I noticed that you do exactly what I do when I don't have a shield with me. I mime the position with my hand, but I tend to hold it very close to my body. See what you can do to keep the mock shield a bit farther from you when you cut, it's good practice! I've yet to master this, although I do it fine when I actually have a shield on. The reason why I suggest practicing like this is that you have a better feel for where your shield is when you are swining. Be careful not to hit your arm though!
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2007 22:48:00 GMT
Okay, which one of you wiseguys gave ShooterMike's vid a one star rating? I know it was one of you! ;D I'd bump up your rating, Mike, but I'm no longer a youtube member. So, Gus is doing peened hilts now? Muy bueno for the more traditionalist sword fan. Personally, I have no prob with his threaded assembly, but it might be a nice change.
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Post by ShooterMike on May 6, 2007 1:00:06 GMT
Guys, I'm starting to see different styles. I have been trying to practice what Adam has been teaching and I like the style. However, I see Tsafa and Rammstein's point about covering with the shield and protecting the sword side of my body. Thanks to all you guys for helping me out. I will definitely never be any good at this. But it's a lot of fun to go through the learning experience. Kriegschwert, I could care less what the video rating on YouTube is. If it was possible so that only SBG Forum members could see it I would. I only use it as the video equivalent of ImageShack. So to whoever rated it. As to the peened hilt swords, Gus has been planning them since at least last fall, maybe longer. However, this was to be the first one and I took it away from his project. He's also extremely busy so I don't know when he'll get back to it. However, I think he has one more in work. It's a two-hander great sword if I remember correctly.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2007 2:24:07 GMT
I had not noticed the rating thing. I just submitted my rating. I think that should push it up a bit.
On the grip issue like I said, its debatable. I've consulted a lot of really good fighters, and heard some opinions going in many directions, the one that I like best is loose, and then tighten up at the moment of impact.
On the leg issue, that I know for sure because I learned the hard way with many bruises on that sword leg when it sticks out. Also when I stick out the leg, that means my whole upper body has now squared off and is sticking out from the shield. I got to few busies on my shoulder to teach me to stay behind the shield. No question a shield defends better then a sword. If you tilt your hip, you can put a lot of power into the swing without actually steeping forward. Then from that position you tilt the hip back to generate force the other way and go into a series of combinations.
I think that the whole discrepancy here comes down to a matter of cutting vs. fighting. Sure you will cut better if you take a big wind up, step forward and carry through. But that is different from what is involved in fighting. In fighting with sword and shield you don't expect you first strike to land, you expect it to be blocked, you expect the second one to be blocked too, but the first two combination are setting you up for a third strike that may find an opening... or maybe not. You can't over commit, you may need to make a forth and fifth attempt and all the while your opponent is watching your for opening.
Its a similar issue with a two-handed weapon... cutting vs. fighting. Sure a big windup from behind the head, with a step forward and a follow through will make a perfect cut against an inanimate target, but it will get you killed in a fight because as you wind back your opponent will thrust straight forward or make a smaller, faster, less lethal cut. Less lethal but enough to end the fight. A two-handed sword is also your shield, it is best to keep it between you and your opponent.
My apologies if I was unclear, my advice is intended for fighting rather then show-cutting.
I would love to see some more vids Mike.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2007 3:10:13 GMT
I was talking about fighting and the twirling. From talking to people not any actual practical experience a few people i know actually attack with their sword foot backwards just slightly so that you can withdraw more quickly or set up a more solid block with the shield. Tsafa is it fair to say that a rapid over and down at a diagonal slash is quite a strong attack. I might not have explained that properly.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2007 4:15:42 GMT
I'm trying to visualize this... you mean one foot facing in the direction of attack and one foot facing opposite. I might call this summo style??? I have never seen any fighter or fencer intentionally do this. It seems contrary to body mechanics. It would seem to rely on the leg-bicep to pull you back. The normal way you use the powerful quadriceps and glute muscles to push off. More the glute ($emprini) muscle going forward and the quad going back.
The two main stances are one foot forward pointing at your opponent and the other, in a perpendicular behind it this is also used in modern fencing. The feet form a 90 degree angel spaced about a foot apart depending on your size. This stance gives superior froward / back motion, side to side is compromised. The stance is very defensive in that your left shoulder is forward and your torso turned to the side minimizing you as a target. This stance will keep you well behind the shield.
The other common stance, is front foot pointed at you opponent and the back leg off to the side at about 45 degrees. This gives good front and back and also good side to side motion. Your torso is more forward presenting a slightly bigger target. You square-off a little. Your right shoulder will be open but you can compensate by moving your shield further right. In both stances you want to be evenly balanced so you can move just as easily front or back. If you weigh your self more forward or back, you will have more difficulty moving in the opposite direction.
The diagonal slash also know as a "strike of wrath" is one of the most powerful strikes because it is the most natural thing for the arms to do. We often refer to it as "cave-manning it". However it will be the least successfully attack you can make. Even if your opponent has his shield at his neck level, if it is even slightly out, you will not hit his head. A polearm held horizontally at his neck level will also stop the blow. A horizontal strike or "cross-strike" will go across the top of the shield to the head. In this case to block it, he must raise his shield. This may expose a leg or he may blind himself temporarily, creating another opportunity for you. The diagonal attack can be blocked without moving the shield much.
(edited)As far a blocking a diagonal slash with a two-handed sword, the hanging guard (ox) works well. His blade will deflect down off yours and then you will be in a position to to bring your blade around to his head as his momentum carries his blade toward the ground. Another option is an undercut the will attempt to stop his motion, catch his blade with your forte, at the point of contact you will again find yourself in a hanging guard with his blade over yours. From there thrust to his belly. Even if you don't get an open thrust, with your forte against his tip you can control his sword better.
When no shield is used your best defense is range... stay out of his. You bestfriend is timing... time your attacks so he can not hit you. Step out of range when he attacks and back to counter attack as he misses. If you don't use range and timing effectively, your practice fights will result in a lot of double kills. That means you both loose. If you can not evade his attack with range and timing, your next best option is to deflect his blow as I described earlier. Deflecting requires less energy from you and uses his energy against himself to put his sword in a defenseless position. Finally if you can't avoid or deflect, you must block to save your skin. (/edited)
I have one more point to make regarding that issue of weather or not to keep the leg behind the shield. In a real fight there is something more important then hitting the other person... that is not getting hit yourself. Muscle cut through the fiber does not heal well, you will be maimed for life.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2007 7:40:05 GMT
no tsafa, lol, it's not a sumo stance let's see if i can explain it a bit better. As you know footwork is very fluid during fighting or sparring, If a fighter stands with one foot back not a huge distance behind the forward foot, bent with the knee out slightly as the foot is pointed away from the opponent at a very low angle. The foot that is back is on the sword side and the forward foot is behind the shield. Would this work or have i still explained it really badly?
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2007 18:39:26 GMT
This seems to be similar to the second stance I described. Off-foot forward, sword-foot at 45 degrees to the side. This gives strong movement front back and side to side, but exposes the chest more.
If this is not it, you may have to draw me a diagram of little footprints, scan it and post it. Sorry I could not be more helpful.
p.s. I did some editing to my last post which I have marked, check that out too.
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2007 13:34:23 GMT
Hmm i think we are talking about the same thing although the angle on the foot which you describe is too acute, i would more think 30 degrees. So what is a better stance to give you all round maneuverability?
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2007 16:44:28 GMT
The one you describe gives better all round mobility. 30 degrees would be acceptable, the 45 degrees I stated is just an average. People use all sorts of variations. Naturally as you maneuver around your foot placement will not be exact. I would not recommend less then 30 degrees. The drawback of this stance like I said earlier is that it presents a greater target area.
Your hight and weight distribution will effect your balance when maneuvering. If you you carry your weight high, you will probably benefit more from keeping your back foot at 45 degrees. If you have a low center of gravity and are naturally very balanced you can afford to bring your back foot in more toward 30 degrees and gain more reach. This last paragraph is my personal reasoning rather then established theory.
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