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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2006 0:10:39 GMT
Which do you prefer, and why?
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Post by rammstein on Dec 11, 2006 0:15:44 GMT
german just because it is far simpler.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2006 0:23:24 GMT
They have more or less the same guards...but the german's have those tricky meisterhau...what about the italian system strikes you as more complicated?
(btw: I'm not a proponent of either and use both in my longsword fencing)
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Post by rammstein on Dec 11, 2006 0:31:27 GMT
they may have the same guards, but italian has varients of those guards. There are only 4 gaurds and 5 strikes and they work with an austere beauty. It flows effortlessly. Italian just seems overly complicated and more of a superfluous verion of german longsword.
What are the meisterhau? I probably know them, but not under that name.
I've only done very rudimentary training.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2006 7:56:03 GMT
In German tradition, one learns the 4 primary guards(which have their own variants, let me tell you), and then the secondary guards(Joachim Meyer has a gozillion of them), and then you learn how to attack a person in each of those guards - a meisterhau for each then an extra one for good measure.
For attacking somone in pflug, you use the Zornhau. (an intercepting strike that sets aside the foe's blade and threatens them with the tip)
For attacking someone in Ochs, you use the Krumphau (an oblique stroke that targets the adversaries hands or forearms)
For attacking someone in Vom Tag, you use Zwerchau(a strong horizontal cut into the guard of ochs) or Schielhau (a similar cut to the zwerchau but one that strikes downward rather than horizontally)
and for attacking someone in Abler, you use Scheitelhau(a stroke with the arms held high that targets the face or scalp of the foe).
Italians more or less teach you the guards and how to cut/thrust, and then they teach you how to draw out an attack and then defend with an attack - effectively you're attacking someone in mid-strike as opposed to the germans who attack someone in guard.
Granted this is extreme over-simplification, and the italians include versions of the above meisterhau in their depictions, and the germans have their own system of attacking someone and intercepting their strike(it's called vor, nach, and in des), but it more or less sums it up.
Italians are also more linear I've found, and have a greater range of grappling and half-swording techniques(that I love). But their lack of the nicely codified meisterhau is a disadvantage.
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Post by rammstein on Dec 11, 2006 20:20:32 GMT
Hm thats interesting. I never knew this.
What are the other differences then in italian?I've always considered italian longsword overly complicated and german to be simplistic, but apperntly thats not the case?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2006 21:23:57 GMT
I think most people, incuding myself, that study longsword are mostly familiar with the German style. I think that is due to its simplicity, and I think simplicity is easier to teach. While Italian has dozens of guards, most of them fall between one of the four german guards. I don't think their are nearly as many books specializing in Fiore dei Libre. Probobly becasue it is harder to illustrate.
Adam stated one key point to the Italian style in that it is grapeling intensive. Someone who has been practicing swordmanship for nearly 30 years, now in his 60's, told me that that the whole point of Fiore Dei Libre's Italian system is to get in and grappel. The sword is just a means to get you there.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2006 22:22:42 GMT
I think some of us are over-exaggerating how many guards the italians have. There's only about a dozen total. It just seems like a lot since they have categories of guards: Stable, Unstable, and Pulsing.
In effect, even the variations of those same basic guards are present in the german style as well. I've seen more variations on Pflug than I can list in one breath. There's also a numer of different vom-tags. Meyer doesn't use vom tag at all, he uses zornhut(which is equivalent to the italian 'woman's guard'). Then there's all those other german guards most people don't bother with: Long Point, Hanging Point, Weschel, Nebenhut, Schrankhut, Kron, and I'm sure I'm missing at least a few.
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