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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2007 8:50:16 GMT
Ok, I'm feeling goofy today. What do you guys think about fighting with Klingon Batleth. If you don't know anything about Klingons or batleth, read here: www.startrek.com/startrek/view/library/technology/article/111205.htmlI saw one on ebay for about $60. So what do you guys think about batleth as a funtional weapon in batleth vs batleth. How about batleth against other human weapons. I heard there is a martial arts school out in California that teaches how to fight with batleth. You can also take a college course for credit on speaking Klingon in California. Great for scoring interviews ;D |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2007 14:40:17 GMT
Batleth is an awesome weapon that can be utilized as three weapons, staff, sword and axe, it can also be used as a fairly effective shield. Because a batleth is light and maneuverable it can utilize some very interesting combinations not available to any of the three weapons it can be used as. Batleth against batleth with fighters who are equal, the one who is faster and has better manual dexterity would probably win. Against other human weapons except something like a naginata or a yari or a long spear the batleth would reign supreme because it is so versatile. Against a naginata or yari or long weapon, the batleth user is at the same disadvantage as any short weapon against a longer one. I could probably say more but for now i sound like enough of a sword nerd and to add insult to injury i am trying to get the money together to make a batleth out of wood.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2007 6:27:43 GMT
I wonder if the Batleth was every used by any human culture. I have assumed it was puerly fictional, but the simplicity is such that I have to wonder if anyone ever experimented with a similar weapon.
I recall one cool episode of Star Trek where Worf was teaching his son, Alexander, how to use the Batleth properly. He emphisized not blocking but rather deflecting along the inside curve. I thought it was realy cool. Come to think of it, I think that was my first leason in the weapon arts.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2007 6:36:43 GMT
Heh, i fell in love with weaponry in general due to the first viewing of the batleth, as far as i know i think the ancient egyptian used a two handled blade that was a kind of half circle with the curving outer edge completely or it is depicted in some of their mythologies and whatnot, maybe that is where the idea for a batleth can from?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2007 21:59:02 GMT
be careful most are made of stainless steel
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Post by rammstein on Oct 23, 2007 22:16:22 GMT
Completely fantasy. This argument has come up before somewhere. BUt the batleth is nothing more than fictional weapon - remember, if it was a potent weapon, don't you think we'd see it in use in battle?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2007 3:36:17 GMT
Uh ramm, it is a potent weapon and even if it is fictional it can still be deadly and efficient. If someone made one out of carbon steel and balanced and weighted it properly it would be a very deadly weapon indeed.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2007 17:06:27 GMT
I have seen a Chinese weapon that is similar (single-handed), but that was in a movie: Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2007 17:11:19 GMT
It would take a lot of metal to make one. so it would be expensive to do it right. which is probably why it was never really invented. but I always thought it was a very impressive and realistic looking fantasy weapon.
It looks like an ancient chinese weapon.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2007 18:00:54 GMT
Some things from the Wuxia weapon rack: www.wle.com/store/wushuweapons.htmlI would look at the Double Deer Horn, Butterfly Wings, Sun & Moon and the Half Moon Sword. Can't view this at work, but check it out: |
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Post by rammstein on Oct 24, 2007 19:10:16 GMT
It's impractical for the same reason that you don't see double sided swords outside of your favorite anime. It;s like fighting with two daggers with the mobility of a polearm....I.E. short range and completely unwieldiy....you can only strike with one end at a time.
I'm not going to debate this, it's pretty clear in my mind. If you feel a need to refute it, go ahead, I'm not going to respond to this anymore. Waste of time trying to prove that something so crazy would be of no use anywhere other than an anime convention. Or trekies. (Or "MAYBE* some type of dueling).
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2007 21:26:25 GMT
the weight is just too much imagine carrying that thing and marching a few miles to a battle if you were a foot soldier that why swords are made light
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2007 1:13:25 GMT
They were actually designed by an accomplished martial artist, who developed techniques for them based on the chinese martial arts he was trained in.
Supposing one could be made light and balanced enough - there's no reason why they wouldn't be an amazing weapon - if you look at how they're used in the TV series(take a look at the episode 'Reunion', which is in Season 4 of Star Trek: TNG to see Worf use one against Duras who wields a more earth-looking sword(called a tik'leth) and you'll get an idea of the possibilities.
here's the catch though - it's impossible. If one were to make a bat'leth to the proportions seen in the show and have it be functional you'd have a weapon that weighs more than 20 lbs at least. That's why they're not made of steel, they're made of some imaginary space-alloy that's as strong or stronger than steel but far lighter. In the star trek mythos, average bat'leths weigh in around 7 lbs, which is still fairly heavy, but much more manageable. The heaviest and largest bat'leths are about 12 lbs. Given that Klingons are quite a bit stronger than humans, it's conceivable they could use these weapons efficiently - especially if balanced well.
The props used in the show were aluminum, and weighed around 8 lbs.
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Post by rammstein on Oct 25, 2007 1:16:45 GMT
actually according to that site, average batleths were 11.7 lbs. Thanks, but I'd rather have a REAL weapon  |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2007 3:29:21 GMT
Modern bat'leths suffer from the same problem that many modern swords today suffer from: Overbuilding them.
Worf's bat'leth was passed down for 10 generations and was typical of those that came from a more melee oriented era. Note that it's slimmer and lighter than a lot of other typically seen.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2007 4:24:13 GMT
I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to say here mate? The same reason you don't see double sided swords? You mean double ended swords? From your comments it becomes instantly obvious that you are talking from theory not experience. Double ended staff weapons are highly effective. Also all staff weapons can only strike with one end at a time. Two daggers with the mobility of a polearm? What the hell do you mean by that? Alot of what you just said makes no sense.
It would be an effective weapon, but that's only if you have an understanding of the mechanics of the bat'leth and i'm not sure you do ramm.
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Post by rammstein on Oct 25, 2007 10:29:22 GMT
Meh, why not....I'm feeling combative:
A batleth is nothing more than two daggers held in an icepick position in which only one end at a time can be effective since, by swinging one end, the other end retreats. By mobility of a polearm" I mean that both daggers are connected in the middle completely KILLING any dexterity you might have with it. Secondly, unless you witch your grip pretty fast, your reach will be the same as fighting with a dagger in combat.
Talking from theory rather than experience? last time I checked double ended (yes, my error) swords are completely impractical. If you believe something like this can actually be used effectively in a combat situation, well....Go ahead believing it. Doubled ended staff weapon effective? Where in the world did you get THAT opinion? The greeks used a buttcap as a secondary spear head of the primary was damaged....thats all I can think of. Remember, I'm thinking in a battlefield situation, not dueling. The batleth is far more likely to cause more harm to your friends than enemies.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2007 13:50:26 GMT
Err Ramm, i think you are talking out your @$$ mate. The bat'leth is alot more flexible than just two daggers held in an icepick grip. First of all the bat'leth has 3 handles giving you alot of mobility. You can use it one handed or two handed. You can chop with it like a sword or axe, you can extend your reach by utilizing two handles close to each other. I think you are being narrow minded because you have a preconceived notion about its utility without thinking about all the ways it can be used. Find a picture of one and consider all the posibilities. Of course i know that you only stick to the so called "traditional" techniques and things. Using a normal staff is about being able to switch grips rapidly as are many weapons, a bat'leth is no different.
I still disagree with the double ended sword being impractical, take darth maul for example in star wars. His combat style is very effective, the monks spade is a very effective weapon as well, the earth sun moon and stars blades are very effective to. In combination with other weapons it would be very effective. I mean look at some of the tactics used in history with other weapons. If you took the spartan shielding tactic and combined bat'leth and spartan spear it would be highly effective. Used from horseback it would be pretty awesome to. Battlefields are an ever changing animal where any weapon can prove as deadly to friends as enemies. I still think if you think about the logistics of the bat'leth you can work out how it could be used, that is what i do though i pick up and weapon and i use it and it teaches me how it works. Maybe that is just me though, and no i am not talking about playing i am talking about serious use.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2007 13:50:28 GMT
;D Oh boy a Trekkie argument, Yippy!! Boy you guys know your stuff...practical or impractical?? guess it depends on your definition...is a Kat practical?..Woops never mind that one. Sorry guys after many years as a star trek fan going all the way back to the original series I still get a kick out of things like this.. Batleths came in a number of sizes and configurations over the years, they were also never used as you would a traditional sword, they seemed to be used mostly as a impact weapon and chopping weapon...almost a combo battle axe/quarter staff. Back in 96 a group called pacific warriors in produced a book called: Secret Fighting Arts of
The Warrior race
Volume 1-batletH ylqelWhich was distributed through Wing Lam Enterprises www.wle.comand was very quickly pulled from publication at the request of those folks at Paramont. The book attempts to show a combat system for the Batleh whether it would work in a actual combat situation I have no idea but it does give at least what appears to be a usable system based on earthly martial arts. Wing Lam still has the book listed on their site as having a few advanced copies that were not pulled and destroyed for a whopping $80 I paid $16.00 for mine in 96 not a bad investment...they also sell a batleth which weights in at a little over 7 lbs and is 46 in long stainless steel of course for $349 Rammstein for your own safety never go to a Star Trek convention and say that a batleth is impractical to a Klingon.. ;D They might be impractical but they still hurt. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2007 15:17:15 GMT
Can’t…resist… Getting…pulled…into…silly…thread…  I think that this discussion is frustrating the two of you (Ramm and Bloodwraith) because you are coming at it from different perspectives on the context of the weapon. I think that Ramm is looking at the weapon from a perspective of military history and historical martial arts, and he is questioning its practicality beyond a specialized dueling situation. Maybe it could be used somewhat like a dueling shield? That is the closest parallel I can think of in historical European weaponry. Bloodwraith seems to be coming at it from a fictional perspective (and I might be wrong about that). The batleth is apparently a fearsome weapon in the Star Trek universe, as is Darth Maul’s double ended lightsaber. I think that Ramm is having trouble seeing how these fictional weapons from fictional universes have any relevance in our world. Evidently a batleth made to Klingon specifications (did I really just say that? ) would be too heavy in reality, so it seems that the argument being made for the effectiveness of a batleth is based on the assumption that this weapon is made from some type of lighter Star Trek super metal. It might be more helpful for Ramm and others to understand why the batleth could be an effective battlefield weapon if Bloodwraith could use more present day Earth examples to illustrate the points being made. Using fiction as evidence will not resolve many questions. Maybe just avoid going altogether. I am not sure you'd get along. ;D |
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