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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2007 3:23:35 GMT
Ok first I'll start by saying I have very little expirience when it comes to Real swords I am familiar with Blunted versions which I use for Practice and Wish to Start up a Collection...
I am personally attracted to Katana and Japanese Styled Blades
I'll ask a question of Opinions: 1. Do you feel proper sword handling lessons are absolutely neccessary for owning a Real Sword?
2. Do you feel your first Real Sword should be a cheap one or a higher quality more expensive one?
3. To me, this is more of a hobby... To you, is it more of a Lifestyle?
4. Are Students allowed to design their own style/techniques?
5.Would any Bladesmith anywhere even consider making Weapons for anyone who's not properly Trained?
6.I am shopping around for a replacement tool... the handle on mine is Cracked and the blade itself is showing what looks like fissures... Originally I paid about $22 for it but I can't find where my friend got it from. My question is, Should I get a sharpened blade or another blunted one for more practice.(I've been going about it for more than a year now and I am feeling pretty confidant in my abilities)
To anyone who wishes to take the time to answer any questions or just state their opinion(doesn't have to apply directly to any of my questions; I would Love to hear responses and even critisism if you feel the need) I'm very open to discussions.
Thank You in advance, by the way My name is Jason
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2007 3:50:01 GMT
I have to admit I really wouldn't use a Live Blade for anything else other than test cutting.
Also I've heard that a Live Blade should be sharp enough to completely cut through a human wrist by just the weight of the sword.(meaning no other forces required and no follow through of the body) just how sharp is this and aside from just generally speaking just how could you measure this with anything with the same properties.
or if this isn't the case then by what means is the sharpness of Blades such as Katanas Measured. or is there even a standard to use.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2007 13:25:07 GMT
...4. Are Students allowed to design their own style/techniques?... I feel the answer to that question is actually a resounding YES! As I've recently tried to explain in my 'stylistic disclaimer', anyone who thinks they can follow all the techniques of uniquely one master are fooling themselves. We are by our very nature incredibly unique individuals, literally the mix of our parents, who are themselves the mixes of their parents, etc, and what I get from my Dad he might not himself have, it might have been passed from his great grandmother on his father's side, etc. This inherent uniqueness implies that we all have differing perspectives on things - particularly subjective things like 'good' technique. While there are many movements with a sword only a fool would call good, and many movements you'd have to be a dumb$emprini to call bad; at the end of the day it only comes down to one thing: Did it work. Do a youtube search for 'Mitsuge Saotome', and then another one for 'Morihiro Saito'. Both of them trained and study the same art and way from the same guy for years and years - yet their technique is obviously very different from one another. Both of them could take a man and mop a floor with him, both use the same 'techniques', but there are differences in execution that are unique to them. Neither one even does their techniques the same way as Ueshiba, their teacher. Same applies for the Longsword. In his manuscript, Fiore Dei Liberi(one of the two Italian masters who wrote on longsword who's work we still have) says it right out that he studied under a number of other great masters, of various ethnic background, and that in his system he only includes techniques that he has used, been taught, seen, or MADE UP. Just because someone makes up a technique does not make it invalid(in fact, all martial techniques were made up by someone...). There are certain dynamic principles inherent to any martial conflict and proper application of those principles can yield an innumerable amount of techniques. Of course, we all start learning the techniques of the masters to learn those principles and to get ourselves started. But as we become proficient, I think it's important to get together with a group and to literally just forget everything in the manuals and just start experimenting from the ground up. It's a wonderful learning device to use, and often illuminates the techniques that ARE already in the manuals. So by so doing, we not only get a more fundamental and greater understanding of the 'codified' techniques, but we learn some technique that we can attribute to our own creativity and dedication to the art - even if someone else already come up with the same technique it doesn't matter. In fact I guarantee someone else has already experimented with the same. What matters is that you come up with something martially sound that works according to the principles of swordsmanship. What matters is you stop imitating the masters and instead assimilate what they all have to teach into something a little more true for you.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2007 16:23:44 GMT
Hiya Jason, welcome to the SBG forum. You will be assimilated.
Taking your original questions in order;
No, anyone can own a sword, using it may be a differnt matter. However I have no formal training in sword use and I still order my tatami mats and slice them into bite sized sections at every opportunity. Safety is the key word, along with awareness of your suroundings and exactly where the sharp side of the blade is, and is going to end up.
I'd never go cheap for a first sword, inexpensive perhaps, my first, and still favorite cutting tool is the Hanwei Practical Katana. It's all in what you're willing to do, if you really want to go out and spend $1000.00 on a high end katana and are willing to take the risk that you'll fudge up a cut and potentially damage that sword go for it. Personally, I'd rather own three $300.00 katana that I can use, but I am a backyard cutter, not a Tamashigiri practitioner.
It's a hobby, a hard core hobby perhaps, but I do not live a "sword" lifestyle, there are too many other things I need to do with my life.
See other posters for this one, I can't help in the realm of "professional" practitoners.
If you can find a bladesmith who is willing to make a one off sword and you can afford it, go for it. I can't see any bladesmith turning down that kind of money for any reason.
If you're interested in cutting, go for the sharpened blade, there are many, many to choose from that are very reasonably priced, and of good quality.
-John
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Post by rammstein on Mar 20, 2007 21:02:57 GMT
#5
certainly!
In fact, I don't think ANY custom maker takes that into account. If you're thinking of a design, please let us know! I for one am very interested and I have my designs posted here during the sword design contest.
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Post by rammstein on Mar 20, 2007 21:08:15 GMT
#1
it certainly helps, but by no means are they obligatory. All in all, if you just want to cut a few milk jugs open and aren't interested in precisly how to position your thumb within a thousanth of a milimeter to historical correctness and how to "perfectly" make a smooth draw cut....then sword trsining isn't necessary. I've taken sword fighting classes for preteens and teens but no real classes that teach you how to handle a blade of live steel. That said, I don't find any problems cutting open the average bottle. a few things that may slightly benifit ffrom taking classes is the depth of penetration/cut and/or accuracy. Accuracy has a lot to do with a good sword though.
but if you like historical accuracy or just appreciate the arts themselves, then classes come highly recommended. But to own a sword? It's not necessary.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2007 23:05:37 GMT
well for me, I guess my main goal is just finding a sword that will last longer than a year through normal practice, (well I wouldn't call draw cutting wasps normal) But they seem to be a neat thing to practice on if you can acually get them before they get you. It's awesome when you take out 3 or 4 consecutivly. just don't hate me for killing wasps, they do nothing to help here in Utah. And there are alot to use for targets. besides that I feel it's great for hand eye coordination. although it sucks because you can't use any fancy spin moves... it's like a blind landing and you just have to hope you know where your going.(Used to do competative Gymnastics.)
well on the note of custum designs for things I don't fuss alot with swords but I have a neat Pair of Throwable Balanced Side Claw Katars I'm working on. you can spin them in your hands either 180 degrees to face backward or 90 degrees to use them more like hand axes. or turn your hands sideways and its a evil set of Claws but it's great that you can just chuck them from 20 someodd feet away at targets.
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Post by ShooterMike on Mar 21, 2007 1:12:11 GMT
Karma to you for killing wasps with a sword. I only WISH I could cut with that amount of precision and speed. We have a LOT of them down here and I may have found challenging target for my 1.9 lb bargain-basement ATrim swords. ;D Hmm...Me thinks I see a new handling test for sword reviews. Of course, the weather would make a bit of difference on how fast they are.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2007 6:12:13 GMT
well I'm looking at a number of swords... some for a collection and others to acually use. Here's a question I have.
I Really like the look of Blades in Shirasaya, but I recently read that these are only used for blade storage or transport etc... so I guess I'm asking if there are any shirasaya on the market that are Combat Ready or will stay together through normal use.
also I'm wondering if there are any shirasaya that do not use wood but rather any types of metal or reinforced material for handles etc... I'm sure the demand is there but unsure of blade mechanics or cost...
If a battle ready shirasaya doesn't exsist then I am going to start to get mad at animes.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2007 10:31:18 GMT
Please promise not to try spin cuts with a live blade,if you fall on the edge you will be seriously hurt or killed,these things are like a 3ft razor.Having said that, take a look at the Cheness and Paul Chen swords, they make some very nice stuff at good prices. And lastly beleive NOTHING you see in anime and 10% of what you see in movies.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2007 13:16:19 GMT
Oh trust me I wouldn't be doing those with a real sword... maybe you know a wooden bokken or something if I'm gonna be doing backflips off walls and crap like that.
Extreme Stunts... there is a reason actors use Latex Swords and a reason they arent recorded in historical battles... haha
Movies are not historical battles
and the spin moves I did play around with were done with my unsharpened one so I really didnt feel in any danger since the margin for error is only a small percent of getting impaled etc...(oh yeah and the one time I smacked the back of my head with the side... so I guess getting concusions is another small percent)
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2007 13:23:26 GMT
Oh yeah another thing I think I forgot to mention... I'm only 5'2" at most and I really dont know how you measure a Blades true length but should I even bother looking at 27" Blades, or go shorter with a 26" which I've found a few places.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2007 13:30:50 GMT
the closest thing to a shirasaya that would be consided safeish to use would be the musashi kazemusha Aikuchi style katana /index.cgi?board=japaneseswords&action=display&thread=1173224636&page=1 if you do plan on using a shirasaya never do any thrusting for obvious reasons
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2007 15:23:29 GMT
"...I'm only 5'2" at most and I really dont know how you measure a Blades true length but should I even bother looking at 27" Blades, or go shorter with a 26" which I've found a few places."
As for your height, there are a couple of treatises that mention that your weapon size should fit your stature.
George Silver mentions that for a single hand sword, you find the length by holding a dagger in your left hand(blade up) and a sword in your right, with your hand right up against the cross. The sword should be short enough that you can(with your elbow bent) just pass the tip of the blade of your sword inside the dagger blade when you extend your left hand straight in front of you.
For a hand-and-a-half/two handed sword I cant remember if he said to have the blade be the total length of your single hander or have same blade lengths but a longer hilt.
Fillipo Vadi (a bit earlier than Silver), in reference to Longswords, suggests a sword that fits comfortably just underneath your armpit when standing relaxed.
Guy Windsor(a modern guy) says if you put the tip of your sword on the ground, the pommel should be about even with your sternum for a longsword.
If you're wanting info on Japanese blades, they have a strange measurment system(kindof like the imperial system of inches, feet, yards, etc.) called 'shaku'. Most katana blades are just over 2 shaku. A good blade size for me would be 2-4-0.(which means 2 shaku, 4 thingies which are shorter than a shaku, and 0 thingies shorter than that, sorry, i don't remember the terms). Anyway, a 2-4-0 blade is about 28.5'' as I recall. To find your length, stand comfortably but upright with good posture. With your sword in your right hand, hold it properly and let the tip hang as far as is comfortable to do so without breaking the integrity of your grip or wrist. The blade should be as long as possible without actually touching the ground.
Of course, given that, I've been able to comfortably use swords which are both too long and too short for me(I've used a katana with 30'' blade before, as well as an itty bitty one which was like, 26.5''). I must say, that I'm more comfortable with a little extra length than I am with not enough.
For reference, I'm 5'8''(just under 173 cm).
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2007 21:17:16 GMT
Hey Jason! 1. I don't think so, but I would encourage training with groups such as ARMA if they're in your area because they are very knowledgeable and can teach you alot. 2. If you feel you can justify buying an expensive sword which Im assuming is above 300 (at least for me ;D), go for it. I'll eventually buy a sword above 300 if I have the financing but for now I'm content with sub-300 swords. 3. Right now its a hobby but I hope to be going to college to major in medieval military history. 4. Based on my experience with fencing, I would think they wouldn't let you develop your own techniques right from the start to prevent bad habits from developing. Most people have their own style of fighting to some degree in that they use something that will maximize their strengths (speed, strength, reach, etc.) but teachers may want you to learn the basics and perhaps more before they let you start developing your own style. However, once you've been training for quite some time, I would assume that they would let you start developing new techniques and your own style under their guidance. After I had been training for awhile my teacher started working with me to develop my own style of fighting and techniques for sabre and we ended up coming up with an effective new guard stance in the process . Again, this is with my experience with fencing although I don't think it would be much different from non-sport training. 5. Yes, if it's legal of course. Bladesmiths such as Gen 2 warn theirs customers that swords aren't toys and should be treated carefully. 6.Blunted blades definately. It reduces the risk of injury using blunted blades. Besides, you wouldn't want to ruin a perfectly sharp blade right? You mentioned you're attracted to Japanese katanas so I would suggest a katana because you're 5'2 and most katana blades are already shorter than most European blades, being around 25 inches long I think. Actually if anyone could find a European short sword that isn't a Roman or Celtic sword, I'd be grateful. I already own Gen 2's Celtic sword and am not too fond of Roman swords.
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Post by rammstein on Mar 22, 2007 0:04:38 GMT
Hi there Tim, gratz on first post MRL/windlass has a few you may be interested in. The type "IV" (quite a joke for those of us who know oakshott typology) is a nice looking design, as well as the coustile and cinquedea. There are also a few shortswords offfered, I believe. Gen2's maximillian is relatively short. Albion's baeyux and reeve seem on the shorter side as well.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2007 1:30:58 GMT
Thanks I liked the Type IV sword by Windlass alot and might consider that as my next purchase. Sadly Reliks.com doesn't carry it so no discount. I was also debating between Hanwei’s Practical Ninjato and the Gen 2 Ranger sword although the ninjato is more likely since I'm clumsy with anything over 28 inches . Thank you for the help.
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Post by rammstein on Mar 22, 2007 1:55:32 GMT
I'll be sure to look for some more options. Check of kultofathena and see if they have anything you like in the meantime.
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Post by hankreinhardt on Jun 1, 2007 21:38:23 GMT
Let me add a couple of things. First I agree with Adam. We are all individuals, and each will have different abilities. Some with be quicker, some stronger, some taller, etc. You must learn and then adapt what you have learned to your own personal abilities. I frankly think that sparring is one of the best ways, but it must be full contact. This present problems, which I hope to be able to help with in the near future. As for wasps and hornets and yellow jackets...My vengeance has been terrible. I burn their homes and I burn their children and their childrens children. Their Queen I destroy. I have no mercy for the breed! If you wish to be even more terrible, catch one and pull off its legs, then it must fly and can never land. (By the above you may be able to figure out that I have stung several times. Now to more serious matters. When swinging a sword, as some one has already pointed, it is very important that you know what is around you. Also that your grip is secure, and for a good while I would recommend a sword know. I had a very close friend, a blacksmith who was chopping with an axe and it flew out of his hand, and missed my head by a couple of inches. (I am very quick when my hide is threatened. I know it was not done on purpose, as I owed him money at the time.
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