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Post by Onimusha on Apr 3, 2013 4:30:43 GMT
I was watching some YouTube vids on rajput swordsmanship. I saw a large, two-handed shamshir that the guy called a "Persian ox cutter." Does anybody know a source for a good one?
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Post by chuckinohio on Apr 12, 2013 14:41:09 GMT
The only thing I can think of that is close to that, available, and functional, is the BKS Long Yataghan.
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Post by Elheru Aran on Apr 12, 2013 15:57:16 GMT
Linky to the video pretty please? Large two hand shamshir... rings a bell with the Ottoman Mehmet saber. Something like that perhaps? Lundemo and Vince Evans have made versions of this, I believe...
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Post by Onimusha on Apr 12, 2013 20:00:09 GMT
Here's the video.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Apr 12, 2013 21:22:15 GMT
It appears to be a fantasy sword. What are the criteria for "good" when it comes to a fantasy sword? For functional, BKS and Darksword make/made fantasy scimitars with 2-handed grips, although in a different style. Functionally, a katana/o-katana/odachi of suitable size would give you a curved-blade two-handed sword of appropriate length. Install new guard and new grip, and you have the cheap functional version.
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Post by Onimusha on Apr 12, 2013 22:02:51 GMT
It's a real type of sword.
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Post by chuckinohio on Apr 12, 2013 22:54:50 GMT
Looking at the video, the Persian Ox Cutter doesn't look that far off from a Longship Armory Verrimus. You could contact John Lundemo with a link to the vid and get his input about crafting one perhaps.
Also, I think that you could contact Lutel and possibly come up with a furniture combination in conjunction with one of their Messer blades that may fit the bill.
It's a neat piece regardless, and if you find one similar, be sure to post up your findings here. I find that my interest in that sword is now piqued thanks to your post.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Apr 12, 2013 23:56:48 GMT
Persian? Where can I see one?
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Post by Onimusha on Apr 13, 2013 0:20:30 GMT
Don't know timo. I just know that the guy in the vid is a legitimate instructor who says it's a real type of sword used in Indian sword arts. He says they are expensive. Probably rare.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Apr 13, 2013 1:02:46 GMT
It's clearly used in Indian MA (but not common), but if it's a 20th century (or later) addition with no historical basis, I'd still call it a fantasy sword.
Depends on what one means by "real". Unless there are genuine historical examples, I wouldn't call it any more real than the classic "ninja" sword. Some might call both "real". I don't think it's a real Persian sword, in any case. A real modern Indian martial arts sword, perhaps.
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Post by Onimusha on Apr 13, 2013 1:19:41 GMT
Could be. It might be a modern name for a historical weapon. Like "last ditch" arisaka, or any name we give European swords. I'm sure the Vikings didn't call their swords "Viking swords." They didn't call themselves Vikings for that matter. I can already see that this matter will take some serious digging.
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Post by randomnobody on May 31, 2013 3:06:23 GMT
I've taken an interest recently in Indo-Persian arms, so thought I'd have a look into this thing. Unfortunately, there is nothing to be found save this video. A Google search for "Persian ox cutter" does turn up an offer of the translated(?) "sossun patta" but a subsequent search on this term brings up what looks like an over-sized kukri in a tulwar hilt. :? Here's an example that's more yatagan than kukri, but nothing like the one in the video: www.ashokaarts.com/shop/rare-mah ... circa-1700 Himalayan Imports offers this: www.himalayan-imports.com/assets ... nPatta.jpg This thread seems to compare a Nepalese sword, I'm not sure if they're calling it a kora, to a "sossun patta": www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5289Generally, it seems to be a term applied to a recurved blade, rather than the shamshir/messer seen in the video...but I do wonder if one might contact the youtube channel and ask for more information? I've seen a few articles and videos about and from this fellow, he seems very open. I'm sure information is out there. I have spent the better part of the evening trying to find more on various Persian swords, but only coming up with shamshirs and scimitars. Indian swords seem to be another very common sighting, but none anything like the one in the video. I am stumped, but at least we know there was something called an "ox cutter," although it may be a more generic term for a big, heavy sword rather than a specific type of big, heavy sword... Edit: I think I forgot to include this thread: www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3552Seems the one pictured far left is what this person is calling an "ox cutter," while the second from the right looks like the one on Ashoka Arts' page. I'm so confused.
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Post by Onimusha on May 31, 2013 4:08:32 GMT
That thing in the vid looks like a two-handed, long shamshir. I haven't been able to find anything either. The only thing I find that comes close is a fictional weapon.
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Post by randomnobody on May 31, 2013 4:28:51 GMT
I think I've found teh guy's website, here: nidarsingh.com/#7Here's a shot of some of the swords he uses in his training seminars: nidarsingh.com/gallery/nsgal20.jpgI think the one in question is toward the rear/left, seventh in? I am also quite taken with the one nearest front, the first blade in full view. I've yet to find its proper name, but it seems to go between "Khyber" knife for the mountain pass of the same name, where it was encountered by British mid-19th century and became famous, and "pesh kabz" which seems more a generic name for a triangular knife. I actually have an antique model on the way from an eBay seller, and have been eyeing several at other sites, as well. This one is just a pretty example. That said, there is an email address on that page. I wonder if one might try asking there?
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Post by Onimusha on May 31, 2013 4:37:53 GMT
I could I suppose.
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Post by randomnobody on May 31, 2013 4:51:45 GMT
The only reason I haven't asked already, myself, is that I am not particularly interested in this particular sword. Now, to get his thoughts on kukris, pesh kabz, tulwars, and khanda...I guess I could just watch more videos. :x These styles are far more prevalent, so information is not nearly as scarce as for this "ox cutter" sword. If you do email, remember to be polite, and express interest in learning, rather than simply demanding information. Goes without saying, or does it? :oops:
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Post by Timo Nieminen on May 31, 2013 7:41:11 GMT
Over-sized kukri, with either regular kukri hilts, tulwar hilts, or kora/khunda hilts are used for sacrificial killing of large animals like buffalo and cattle, so they're a natural thing to find.
However, very different from the "ox-cutter" in question (and not Persian, either).
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Post by randomnobody on May 31, 2013 7:53:29 GMT
Right, I've seen my share of big kuks, and am familiar with the religious ceremonies and animal sacrifice. I'm not sure whether the Indian variants like what's seen through Mr. Singh have the fame intended function, or are strictly fighting weapons. He's got an interesting video about the differences between the typical Nepalese kuk and his personal mughal/punjabi model somewhere on YouTube, I think as part of the same series the original video in this thread is from. I'm on my phone now and trying to convince myself it's time to sleep (nearly 4am) or I'd grab a link.
I'm not sure, though, how the "sossun patta" I'm finding might relate to the sword he's using in the earlier video. Still looks more grosse messer to me, maybe with shamshir influences. :?
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Post by Timo Nieminen on May 31, 2013 10:36:20 GMT
The sword most commonly meant by "sosun patta" (sossun patta, sosun pattah, or various spellings) looks like it is usually a fighting sword. This is the sword that is essentially a yataghan, complete with T-spine, except in a tulwar or shamshir hilt (or khanda hilt). But there are some sacrificial/temple/ceremonial/execution swords with a forward curve that are also called sosun patta. Some examples that are apparently used for sacrificial beheading of large animals: www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=626www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=659It's these that link "ox-cutter" to "sosun patta". Rawson ("The Indian Sword") calls ones like this "South Indian flamboyant sword": vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3165Still no connection to the original two-handed shamshir-like sword. I have seen such two-handed shamshirs being offered by Chinese dealers of supposed antique swords on ebay - I wonder what they are copying? A mystery historical example we can't find? A movie sword?
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Post by randomnobody on May 31, 2013 16:51:59 GMT
Part of me loves the extreme recurve of those swords, another part finds it absolutely ridiculous. That same part can't imagine how uncomfortable those grips would get after a few swings, but perhaps this isn't such an issue of these were any level of common as they seem to have been. I think it may have been Rawson's book that I spent some time trying to navigate an online transcript/scan of last night to little effect, too difficult to maneuver on a phone. I've seen only very few books on Indian, Persian, and general "Islamic" or other "middle-eastern" or "Indo-Persian" weapons and armor, but would love to get my hands on a proper hard copy. What I can find seems quite scarce, though, usually very old. I'm definitely curious where this odd shamshir came from. No doubt the man using it is a respectable and trustworthy source on Sikh fighting gear and technique, but it's odd that nobody else knows that specific sword. He does claim it was rare and expensive, but surely that's all the more reason for a museum somewhere to have an original? Or perhaps because it was rare and expensive nobody felt the need to preserve one as it's not representative of anything and seen as a mere oddity? I wonder what we might learn of this bizarre sword...
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