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Post by Johan Elder on Nov 21, 2012 2:47:35 GMT
Hi.
I have a fairly new Feder, from Peter Regenyei, and while overall it is very good, especially for the price, the one issue is the guard which has loosened slightly.
The sword is a peened pommel construction, but the grip assembly is still a compression fit, and under the impacts involved in training and sparring the wood of the grip has compressed a bit so the guard rattles. I knocked in some shims which tightened it up, but it is loosening again.
My gf's father has been giving me some lessons in MiG welding, and I had wondered if that could be a solution, but then just figured that it would be a bad idea as it would mess with the heat treat. However I have noticed in reading online in the last 2 days that BKS welds their guards for stage use, and I noticed in the classified section that someone was selling a Valiant Armory Savoy that has been peened and has had the guard welded for solidity.
I figure 2 places to weld. With the grip taken off and weld where the guard and tang meet. Or, in front of the guard where it meets the wide ricasso of the feder.
Is it possible to do this without ruining the blade at the hilt somehow? Very short spot welds building up? How to keep the heat from traveling in the steel?
Any help appreciated, from a straight, 'no, don't do that!', to a how-to.
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Post by chrisperoni on Nov 21, 2012 3:55:56 GMT
If the Savoy I have is tig welded then that means it would have less heat transfer to the metal around the weld- that's part of why I think it's tig not mig. but what do I know?
Does anyone know if BKS's stage steel is tempered?
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Post by K. Vander Linde on Nov 21, 2012 4:04:43 GMT
It should be fine, My budy Nick welded a blade on his baskethilt. Then you could also use an epoxy, Nicks students have done this on their H/T long swords. Also make shure the metal won't just melt, know the metal. Very short spot welds is what Nick used and it turned out great, also think thats how BKS does it but IDK. No idea how to keep the heat from travaling, Nick didn't bother when he did it, he just went at it.
BKS's stage steel is tempered, I'v used around 25+ of their stage products.
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SanMarc
Senior Forumite
Posts: 3,193
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Post by SanMarc on Nov 21, 2012 5:18:46 GMT
The tang is drawn back so it wont break, clamp the blade in two pieces of aluminum and that will keep the temper in the blade.....Roach.
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Nov 21, 2012 8:52:52 GMT
Be careful. If you just weld it on, you'll end up with punctual heating of the steel, this will lead to punctual grain enlargement and eventually breaking in the worst case. If you want to weld on a sword blade you need to re-temper that area afterwards with a torch. Can be done, on a blunt sword that needs to edge holding it's not even that big of a deal but you REALLY need to do both steps. It's quite a bit of a hassle so I suggest using epoxy and metal shims first.
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Greg
Senior Forumite
Posts: 1,800
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Post by Greg on Nov 21, 2012 17:48:39 GMT
You could also back peen it. I know that BrotherBanzai uses this method with extreme success. But if you have enough room to put shims down in there, you'll have to move a lot of metal on the back peen.
Alternately, I've had success with putting the guard in a vice and applying more and more pressure until the sides came in enough to keep the guard from rattling.
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Post by Johan Elder on Nov 22, 2012 0:17:02 GMT
So, the idea would be to heat the area around the weld (guard/tang junction) with a torch until it turns the proper color? i.e. somewhere in the spectrum of straw colored to blue ? What would the proper color be? Just that to refine the grain structure, not harden and temper ..right ?
My first idea was to wait until the wood of the grip gets compressed overmuch, and then take apart the grip, shim the guard in with some metal and epoxy the whole thing back together with a new grip of hard wood. That may be just what I'll do. I was wondering about the welding as I am learning it, and figured that welding would be the strongest method to do it.
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Post by Johan Elder on Nov 22, 2012 0:21:52 GMT
BTW Thanks for all the tips guys. Lots of good info. I had thought about backpeening as well Greg. I fixed a buddys Albion Meyer recently by re-peening the type of backpeen that they have on it. I'll have to see how much play is in the guard when I end up taking it all apart. But I could probably combine that with the shims and epoxy if that is the route I go. Thanks for the tip on the aluminium SanMarc. Funny, but Federico asked a smith he is learning from, and he said you could use a potato cut in half to keep the heat isiolated.
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Post by Lonely Wolf Forge on Nov 22, 2012 3:58:33 GMT
what if you submerge the blade in water except the bit to be welded? that should keep it cool?
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Nov 22, 2012 14:56:39 GMT
Actually tempering is the wrong word. I believe you need to bring the whole area up to critical and then let it cool slowly. The low heat of tempering has little to no effect on grain size IMO. See why this is such a hassle? In order to get good grain you need a slow cooling down process, this means you can't cool a sizable part of the blade with water and will end up with a ruined heat treat in probably the low third (the strong) of the blade. I would only weld before heat treat because of that.
There is another way to securely mount your training swords. You weld the guard to metal slabs that are in turn welded to the pommel (before assembly!!). Then you slide both guard and pommel onto the tang and drill several holes through metal slabs and tang. Those holes are used to peen the slabs to the tang. Finally the tang end is hot peened over the pommel, just as on a normal assembly. This construction will pretty much survive anything you can throw at a sword. Draw-back (apart from the time intense construction): it weighs a ton. On sharps this will ruin any harmonic balance. On a blunt training sword it can be ok. I would still only use this method on stage combat swords. Those REALLY need to take some absurd punishment and have nothing in common with real swords regarding handling and feel. On anything used for HEMA, don't do it. Traditional construction with wedged and back peening fittings should be sufficient.
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Post by GUEST on Nov 23, 2012 5:17:12 GMT
Using tig welding and just spot welding wouldn't hurt the temper much if any. You would just need very small spot welds to hold the guard in place.
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jhart06
Member
Slowly coming back from the depths...
Posts: 3,292
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Post by jhart06 on Nov 23, 2012 8:09:52 GMT
Do *not* weld an object and submerse it in water though. If it goes just wrong enough, you're in for a *shocking* revelation.. This is why I don't keep water bottles near where I MIG weld at work now.
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Post by bladeright on Nov 25, 2012 0:37:00 GMT
i have some aluminum welding rod i get from florida i like very much, has 2 different grades both with flux inside the rod www.muggyweld.com/?view=homehas the best silver rod ive seen to do cast, ss, steel, ect. its expensive but worth it what might be of interest is the cool blue paste. you put this stuff where you dont want the heat to travel past. in the vid they are holding 3" off doing a weld or something like that. www.muggyweld.com/?view=coolblue
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Nov 28, 2012 7:50:47 GMT
If you are going to take the grip off I'd highly recommend just back peening the guard before considering welding. A good spot TIG Weld is ok, but it is possible to get some grain growth. I wouldn't worry too much if it's only at the far outside of the tang and it's a wide tang. It's back from the shoulder where most of the blade stress focussed. I'd still heat up the area (after the weld has cooled fully) to a blue oxide colour to be sure it's not brittle. And DO NOT quench the weld area after the weld is complete. Most welders will just do this by habbit as they are used to working with mild steel. Just let it air cool. But really - just backpeen it. Grind the point of a centre punch to a 1/8" diameter round. Clamp the blade (maybe 4" down the blade) very tight in a leather padded vice. Punch all around the guard slot going from one side diagonally opposite to the other and back. Keep pressing those divots in till the guard is damned solid against the tang. When you put your new grip back on whack a heap of super strength epoxy into everything too. Many blades have the fuller running up the tang. I've found just doing around the three sides at each end of the slot is plenty. See this illustrative pic. Attachments:
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Nov 28, 2012 11:19:09 GMT
What Brenno said... Here's another pic of one of my guards with back peening: I now use a slightly bigger punch but you get the idea...
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Post by texarcana on May 21, 2017 10:49:53 GMT
Okay, so. Pardon my necromancy.
Welding sword to guard is one thing. What about rewelding a guard to lengthen/shorten it?
Would it hold up to use and abuse, and what equipment would you need to attempt this?
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