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Post by Riv Re on Jul 6, 2012 6:08:38 GMT
Hi SBG, This is slightly odd, slightly complicated question. I'm working on a medieval fantasy story (no magic, no modern technology) and my main character gets an arrow wound. This is what happens:
An archer aims at one of the characters, and my MC pushes him aside just in time, and she gets struck herself, either along her side, or it grazes her face or something like that. As a result of the wound, she can't be moved too far. The healer comes the next morning to check on her to make sure that the arrow hasn't pierced anything vital. For some reason they need to wait overnight to make sure of this. The MC ends up totally fine, and not at all incapacitated, just some minor wounds.
The idea I had in my head was that she gets struck in the side, but they're not sure if it pierced a lung or not, and they need to wait for morning for whatever reason. The positioning sort of matters, but I can have the MC turn around or whatnot. The archer aimed at this third character's back, while he was talking to MC. (She saw the archer over his shoulder.) I don't talk much about bow types in the story, and there isn't much variation. I picture just a basic longbow. Flat ground, no more than fifty feet. He's quite skilled, and he shot to kill (he was aiming for the back of the neck/spine).
I don't really like the whole "suspension of belief" thing in regards to my weaponry and wounds. (In case you're curious as to why this happens at all, I need my MC in that specific area for the night.)
So, does this make any sense? Where's the best place for her to get hit that will give her a wound she can easily bounce back from? (I'd love it if you could explain why, too!)
Thanks so much!
ETA: They're not sure if the arrow pierces her lung or not, in part because she loses consciousness. The next day, they discover it hasn't. She's a few inches shorter than him, relatively built (not macho or anything, but definitely not petite), with no armor.
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Sam H
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Post by Sam H on Jul 6, 2012 6:59:06 GMT
Puncturing a lung back then was considered a fatal wound. In fact many wounds we would consider non-fatal today were fatal wounds back then. As for a wound that she could receive and bounce back from... you're probably looking at something like a wound to a large muscle such as a leg muscle or the buttocks. Even then the recovery time wouldn't be short and she wouldn't exactly be mobile for days much less in fighting condition. When you start talking about arrow wounds to the upper torso (even the back) you're talking about an area rich with large blood vessels and organs. Contrary to popular belief and what is perpetuated by the movies an arrow doesn't only penetrate a half inch to an inch then stop unless you've got armor. Even then if it penetrated that deep it'll probably keep on going for a couple more inches. In the human torso 3" of penetration will result in striking something vital whether it be from the front or back. All of that was considered fatal - doctors back then couldn't do surgery and stitch an organ or blood vessel back together to save a life. If you consider that a bow with a 35lb draw using an arrow with a modern day broad head can kill a deer with a shot to the chest (or even a gut shot though that'll take longer) a typical long bow back then ranging from 90lbs to over 180lbs using a medieval broad head could easily shoot through a person even with leather armor at 25 yards or less (distances you were talking about). If the archer were using a bodkin tip he'd blow through most any armor the target was wearing too. Bone wasn't much of a concern for them actually - a bodkin or a broad head at that range carried enough kinetic energy to either shatter or simply penetrate straight through a human shoulder blade. When I was capable of doing so I could put an arrow with a 125 grain broad head through a deer's shoulder bone, through its chest and have the arrow exit the deer and stick into the ground from 30 yards away (150ft) with a 60lb bow. Imagine the power in a 90lb or 180lb bow using battle arrows then (the average hunting arrow nowadays weighs from 400 grains to 600 grains while battle arrows then were considerably heavier at 900 grains on up to around 1500 grains if I recall correctly) - especially in the hands of a skilled archer. Basically, no your main character could not survive a torso shot in medieval times without the use of magic however that's only if you wanted to remain realistic. Enough books, movies etc. have people rebounding from fatal injuries all the time! If you wanted to be realistic though you'll have to come up with another reason for her to be in that location overnight... unless you want her to be buried there the next day. Maybe have her get laid or something...
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Jul 6, 2012 7:22:48 GMT
Sam pretty much hit the nail on the head with the issue. The only real way I could imagine a person surviving a torso shot from a medieval longbow with any kind of head (broadhead or bodkin), let alone what I believe is a petite young girl, is if the only thing it hit was skin; and even then, the kinetic energy transferred would probably leave her with one helluva bruise.
This is just a bit of constructive input, but you just need a reason to keep her in one location for the night for whatever reason, right? You've got the perfect answer already. Instead of having her wounded and miraculously bouncing back, why not just have her group stay there to hunt for this archer? However, instead of just some random arrow mook, he's a trained sniper actively out to get them, so he won't book it the moment his cover's blown. The thing about archery is, to achieve the kind of skill they had back in the day, you pretty much had to start from childhood and practice all the time; as a result, this guy is exceptionally skilled in archery and pretty strong besides (do you have any idea the kind of musculature it takes to draw and aim a 90lb bow?), but he's not worth writing home about for his prowess in hand-to-hand combat. So what do they do? They hunt him at night when his talents are next to worthless. That keeps them in the area for at least one night, is perfectly reasonable, and doesn't deal with miraculous recoveries.
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Aaron
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Post by Aaron on Jul 6, 2012 7:58:23 GMT
Actually not that extraordinary. I am rail thin and can draw and fire a 70lb. bow. I know guys who really aren't that "buff" who shoot 110lb. warbows with relative ease. It certainly takes dedication but it's not something that takes a lifetime worth of training.
Sam is right on target, even a serious wound to an extremity could lead to fatal blood loss. The biggest threat in the time period longbows were common (13th to 16th century primarily), would have been infection. Even a minor would could potentially be fatal.
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Taran
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Post by Taran on Jul 6, 2012 9:21:55 GMT
I weigh in at a whopping 170Lbs (though trying to get back down to 150, I just exercise enough and have some fat). I am in no way, shape, or form "cut" or "swole" or "jacked" or whatever the colloquialism of choice is and I pull a 110 on occasion, though for my regular practice and shooting I use a 70Lb and will be upgrading to an 85 when I get from my deployment (70 is getting too easy).
It's a matter of using the whole body and "grounding" properly. Very similar to what most functional martial arts schools teach.
There are quite a few locations on the torso where an arrow could penetrate all the way through, bleed profusely without being fatal blood loss, and not even do too terribly much damage IF it is a bodkin rather than a broadhead. No matter Where a broadhead hit, the wound would not heal properly and would be crippling to some degree.
Mostly, though, you would want something that graved a rib without breaking it or even cracking it and just put a big hole in the skin. Or perhaps penetrated below the ribs front to back far enough to her side to avoid any organs.
It would be a through and through and bleed hugely and disgustingly and everyone would probably think she was going to die overnight. IF the wound does not get infected, though, and she avoided any strenuous act that would tear it open again, she would recover in a matter of days with no permanent damage but an impressive scar.
Bullets also do this kind of thing on a regular basis. I have a friend who was shot with an AK47 while deployed to Iraq and the bullet went under the skin and travelled Around the skull and out the back. Nasty scar and a good story, but no real damage.
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Post by Ceebs on Jul 6, 2012 9:32:11 GMT
Just to emphasise these points,a half inch quarter pound War Arrow shot from an appropriate weighted War Bow is going to cause some serious discomfort. Having said that, in his formative years, a young Henry V had an arrow embedded in his face which was extracted and his wound treated skilfully. If the wound is not vital then the greatest danger is subsequent infection. Not only may you have dirt or rust on the arrow head but recent research has shown the glue used on arrow heads can be highly toxic. This probably gives rise to the myth that the English poisoned their arrow heads.
If she is stuck with anything other than a superficial wound at that range in the torso then she'll be out for a wee while. Perhaps the arrow could glance off her ribcage (due to the angle of shot) and bruise a rib or two?
As an aside: I regularly shoot a 110 pound War Bow (and I intend to upgrade to 120 next year) at 32 inch draw and I can tell you that strength is trumped by proper technique. You don't need to be the hulk to draw a heavyweight bow. Most of the people on this forum could draw 100 plus pounds easily. The key ingredients, as with any Martial art, are practice and patience.
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Post by MOK on Jul 6, 2012 14:29:42 GMT
If you really want them to stay because she's wounded, I'd have the arrow just barely glance off of a rib or shoulder blade, or even her skull, leaving a shallow cut and some bruising. They stay put because they're not in any particular hurry, she's still hurt (though not badly enough to significantly impede any serious life-or-death activity, like fighting) and it'll leave less of a scar if she takes it easy for a while.
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Post by wolf_shade on Jul 6, 2012 15:33:30 GMT
Have her pass out due to the pain. Without transport other than your feet you're better off not going anywhere with an unconcious companion. If the wound can be a glancing blow to the head there can be concerns about concussion as well. Have the arrow graze the back of her neck (and she again be unconcious). Nice bloody wound but they can't move her because they aren't sure it went deep enough to strike the spine until she wakes up. hearthbeat and breathing signal she hasn't died. Adjust the time of day such that it would make almost as much sense for them to have stayed put anyway.
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Post by deejay on Jul 6, 2012 15:57:36 GMT
From what you are discribing she is talkig to a man?Who is taller than her?I would let her get a nasty knock to the head-lotsa bleeding-really wouldnt want to move her til it stops and she'd be out cold for awhile.I like Vincents idea of hunting the bugger down when night falls-after she has recovered a bit and is really pissed.
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Post by Riv Re on Jul 6, 2012 17:47:58 GMT
Thanks for all the help! I get that a straight-on wound would be a definite no-no. (I definitely don't want to tear a hole in her.) I like the idea of it grazing the side/back of her neck. I guess I didn't make this so clear, but they're not travelling. It's kind of hard to explain, but her companion is the prince. They're in the outer chambers of his room, and an assassin comes in, whom she saves the prince from. I need her to spend the night in his room, but the... "alternative" methods don't really apply in this situation. (They kind of hate each other. She saved him because he's, you know, the prince.)
I forgot to mention: She's a few inches shorter than him (which is why she gets hit in the upper part of her body. Anything lower and it means the archer had terrible aim to begin with), relatively broad, and no armor. Thanks!
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Taran
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Post by Taran on Jul 7, 2012 6:31:08 GMT
...An assassin with a bow...
Who is this assassin that he can get a bow that close to the prince and have time to use it?
A bow from 100 yards or so off, sure, but that close?
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Jul 7, 2012 7:23:13 GMT
As already said, you need a grazing shot if the girl is supposed to be up the next day. As soon as a lung is hit, air enters and it collapses. Usually that'd be the end of her back in that time. Really depends on the amount of air entering and I'd think having an arrow in there makes a big hole. And you'd know that very quickly, too. No need to wait over night. If she remains conscious despite shock, pain and all, she'd have trouble breathing with only one lung intact. Her breathing would also go very quickly and one might see a zyanose. If she's really unlucky, there's a chance she'd end up with a tension pneumothorax in which case the entering air cannot leave and compresses the intact lung as well as the vena cava inf. and sup. This leads to hypoxie and death.
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Taran
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Post by Taran on Jul 8, 2012 11:43:09 GMT
A broadhead is still going to cut her up pretty bad, though. She may walk away from it, but she'll be sporting a truly nasty scar and any muscles in the area of the impact are going to be severely compromised.
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Post by MOK on Jul 8, 2012 14:00:07 GMT
There shouldn't be that many major muscles to be compromised in her scalp...
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Post by Riv Re on Jul 8, 2012 21:12:05 GMT
The prince usually has an archer stationed in his rooms during the day (when he has visitors, etc.). The assassin killed the archer and took his place.
I guess I wasn't so clear in the original post. They're not sure if it hits a lung or not, which is why they need to wait, but in the end it turns out that she got lucky. And yeah, she faints. I know that she wouldn't be able to survive if it had hit her lungs. Thanks.
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Post by RolandDeBalinhard on Jul 9, 2012 7:51:45 GMT
Well, I would've had her take the arrow in her knee, lots of people seem to recover from that. But in all seriousness, and as a fellow writer, I believe it a solid and believable explanation.
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Taran
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Post by Taran on Jul 10, 2012 6:47:27 GMT
And thus is presented the obligatory Skyrim reference... "I used to be an adventurer until I took an arrow to my knee..."
Riv Re, why does the prince have an Archer in his rooms during the day? Is this archer on guard duty? In the Prince's suite? How big is the suite? Or does the prince just keep an archer around because he has a thing about archery? As a piece of his ego? Is the prince a superior archer, himself? These sorts of things need to be explained in a good story. It must be consistent with its internal logic.
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Post by Riv Re on Jul 11, 2012 5:58:08 GMT
Don't worry, it is explained. I just didn't want to get off topic. But yes, it is guard duty. And it's kind of the...throne room. (He's not a prince. He's a viceroy. I just don't want to get into messy discussions. You know what they say about discussing politics and religion...) And funny you should ask about the prince himself. He's actually a terrible archer. Completely and utterly hopeless. It's not for lack of trying (or for lack of his father and tutors beating it into him) but he's just useless with a bow. 102%
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Post by RolandDeBalinhard on Jul 12, 2012 7:20:08 GMT
Taran, someone probably would have done it eventually. I just took the arrow for a fellow forumite, is all.
On a different note, Riv Re, I don't really get where the possible problems would come from in discussing the viceroy. Unless he's a butterfly, he's a governor in the place of a sovereign, hardly controversial stuff.
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Post by wolf_shade on Jul 12, 2012 12:55:20 GMT
A viceroy in general, not controversial. The viceroy in her story? Only she knows. Controversial or not isn't the real issue. If she's concerned that it stretches into discussing politics, given that it's her world and her story, I'd guess she's got the best view on it. If she's the political soapbox type author that puts their political commentary into their novels, even more so.
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