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Post by caferacer on Jun 29, 2012 3:01:59 GMT
I am thinking about trying my hand at archery, just target shooting for fun, no hunting, problem is I know very little about the subject, I did it a few times when I was a kid using a friends 30 LBS fiberglass recurve, what would you recommend for a first bow? I would like a one piece recurve, to me that just look's right, draw weight, length, I am clueless, I found a used bow I like, just not sure if it is a good choice it is a Bear tigercat, 45LBS 58" $150, it felt comfortable when I drew it, and it is in nice condition if anyone could help "point" me in the right direction (ha ha) that would be great :ugeek:
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Post by chrisperoni on Jun 29, 2012 3:35:18 GMT
First rule is to drop down by at least 10lbs from what you think you want- I wouldn't go for over 35 in your case, and in fact would actually suggest 30. Bear is a great choice but examine the bow very carefully. look along the edges for any cracks or separation of the laminated layers, examine where the limbs transition to the riser. If you can get us pics that'd help you too. Use google/ebay, that sort of thing to determine if the price is fair. Check out archerytalkforum www.archerytalk.com/vb/the classified there is usually a good place to buy Forgot to mention you need to figure out your draw length so you know what size bow to buy. Hold your arms out straight making a "T" and measure your armspan from finger tip to tip - then divide by 2.5. That's not exact but a good reference point.
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Post by ineffableone on Jun 29, 2012 3:41:10 GMT
You might try one of the one piece recurves from Andover Archery www.andoverarchery.com/Products/recurve_hunting_bows.htmChris Peroni did a review of the Greatree Osprey Takedown Recurve Bow he got from Andover viewtopic.php?f=33&t=11398&p=143301Though I would recommend a take down recurve over a single piece so you can get different weight limbs if you ever desire for greater distance and power. Even if you never plan to hunt with it it can be nice to have a bow that can trade up in power if desired. If your set on a single piece bow Bear does make good bows and the Tigercat has been around for a long time and has a decent reputation. Becareful though buying a used one, make sure you get a good look at it and have the option to return it if it is defective. Though it sounds like the one you are looking at is in person which does really help. Not that they have a history of problems but you never know what sort of abuse and damage it might have, especially if your buying online. There are a bunch of them for sale on www.archerytalk.com so you can easily shop around if you really like that bow. What ever bow you end up with I am glad to hear there are more folks getting into archery. It is a lot of fun and great exercise. Just remember you use muscles in archery you don't normally use and in different ways, it is easy to get sore and worn out when you start. So take it easy and don't over fatigue yourself.
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Post by ineffableone on Jun 29, 2012 3:59:16 GMT
A little more snooping and I have found the Bear Tigercat selling from $100-$200 all over online. A lot has to do with condition the year it was made and the seller's attachment to the bow.
Considering your new to bows and would not necessarily know if there is damage to the bow that could cause failure I would suggest you ask the seller to take the bow to an archery shop or range to have it looked over by an expert. Due to it being an older bow this is sort of necessary. An old bow that has been improperly stored, used, etc can have dangerous flaws in it. An archery store or range would gladly help you so not to loose a potential customer due to a bow failure.
As Chris suggested you want to find your draw length, the arm length measure is pretty standard way.
A 35-45# bow should be doable but as Chris mentioned often what you think you can handle with a little try is not the same as what you will be able to deal with shooting for an hour. As I mentioned the muscles you use for archery will not be used to being used like that.
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Greg
Senior Forumite
Posts: 1,800
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Post by Greg on Jun 29, 2012 12:18:32 GMT
Are you looking for a recurve specificly, or just a good self bow? If are looking for just a solid starting bow, check out KP Archery on ebay: stores.ebay.com/KP-ArcheryI'm not sure what your draw distance is, but you can get a great bow for about $40 : I have two bows from KP. I still shoot my starting bow, and I bought a second 65lb from them about a year ago. Both are still in great condition.
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Sam H
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Post by Sam H on Jun 29, 2012 12:41:59 GMT
Others may differ but my experiences with bows have taught me the following:
1. A long bow is more forgiving of a beginner than recurves etc. 2. Proper string height is VERY important. 3. Its ok to start shooting with a lower draw weight bow - where I live its legal to hunt deer with a 35lb bow. It doesn't take 60+ lb. bow to kill a deer. 4. Its actually better to be able to shoot more accurately with a lighter bow than to shoot less accurately with a heavier bow. A hit with a lighter bow is still a hit - a miss with a heavier bow is still less effective than a hit with a lighter bow. 5. Make sure you have quality arrows. 6. Don't trust really old bows.
That said, to answer your question I wouldn't buy that Bear Tigercat if you want a bow to shoot with. It violates point 6 in what I learned about archery. The Tigercat model was made between 1964 to 1978, or was it 1980? Well in either case that makes the bow, at the very least, over 30 years old! Despite the fact that it is made with a more modern construction I wouldn't trust the bow to survive being shot often. I've had more than a few old recurves and long bows either delaminate or simply break at the limbs on me. A local archery shot told me that was normal for their age and that sort of result could be hastened if the bows weren't stored correctly for long periods of time too.
There IS a market out there for old collectible bows and that's probably why the seller was pricing his/her Tigercat at $150. If you're looking to pay that you could find yourself a nice new entry level long bow or recurve for that price. No need to pay that for a bow that may break on you before you get through a dozen arrows.
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Post by chrisperoni on Jun 29, 2012 14:50:26 GMT
Sam makes a great point about the age. For $150 you could have a decent brand new bow which will serve you well and have a warranty. If you do go for a used bow I would also suggest you look it over for any twisting of the limbs. Still. the more I think about it the more I think you will prefer new.
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Post by ineffableone on Jun 29, 2012 16:28:01 GMT
Yep over at Archery Talk Forum the mods there suggest beginners go new rather than older used bows. Mainly due to the problems that a beginner would not be able to spot in an old bow that could cause injuries. This was why I recommended if your set on this bow to take it to an archery shop or range and have an expert go over it. An old Tigercat can have plenty of life left in it, or it might not, but it takes an expert archer going over it carefully to tell. I would not even trust myself to be able to spot all the possible issues and seek an expert for an old bow. Again Bear makes great bows, and this warning is nothing against Bear, it has more to do with aged and used bows in general. You need to be careful when gong used route due to issues that can arise from improper storage. Personally I would again suggest a Takedown bow over the single piece. The Samick Sage is an inexpensive $139 at 3Riversarchery TD bow that offers a lot of different weight limbs, shoots great, has a great reputation, and looks nice. see review on 3Rivers site www.3riversarchery.com/PowerReview/Pwr/product-reviews/Bows/Recurves/Recurve-Bows-Imported/p/2490X-Sage-No-Tools-Take-Down-Recurve-Bow.html There are also a lot of video reviews of this bow on youtube. This is one of the most recommended beginner bows these days since for the low price it shoots like a bow twice the price. The TD makes it a bow you can grow into by trading up to heavier limb weights as you need. Buying a new single piece recurve is going to cost a lot more than $150 as they tend to go for $400 and up for decent quality ones.
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Post by ineffableone on Jun 29, 2012 16:33:27 GMT
Oh a good piece of advice for beginner, you want to get a bow stringer. These are simple devices made of a cord and some sort of grips that fit on the ends of the bow, you step on the cord and pull the bow to allow you to fit the string loop into place. The older methods of using your legs can cause damage to the limbs, one of the reasons old bows can be dangerous.
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Post by mcapanelli on Jun 29, 2012 17:20:38 GMT
With a budget of $150 I'd head over to rudderbows.com I've owned a bunch of bows from Jim, both new and used, and have never been let down. He'll also give you honest advice and will steer you towards a model that will fit your needs. Pay him a visit and drop him an email and you'll find out for yourself.
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Post by caferacer on Jun 29, 2012 22:45:14 GMT
WOW a lot of helpful replies and links the bow in question is for sale at an archery range, a bit of research and it appears to be made in 1972, it is in excellent condition, according to the shop selling it and verified by my own inspection, no splitting or cracks nicks scratches or dings, it showed no signs of twisting when strung, the price is about half of a new bear grizzly, finger tip to finger tip is 73" divided by 2.5 gives me a draw of 29.2" the draw weight of 45LBS felt very easy to me, I tried a 55LBS at cabellas and it was not comfortable to draw, and the 35LBS was OK but felt a bit light, I have always wanted a nice wooden recurve bow, just like the way they look, long bow's, takedowns, compound, just don't have the classic graceful lines of a one piece recurve, and like a nice sword a weapon has to look right as well as be functional, so is 58" a good length? or to short? how do I tell the draw length of a bow? or how do I size a bow to fit me? :?:
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Sam H
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Post by Sam H on Jun 29, 2012 23:41:13 GMT
Typically you determine YOUR draw length then get a bow according to your length and draw weight requirements.
Basically if you want a bow you go to the archery store and have them measure your draw length then determine the draw weight you want and then you start shopping for bows.
If you have a 28" draw and your bow has a 29" draw you're not hurting the bow or yourself much. You might lose a few fps (literally a few) in arrow speed but nothing to worry about. However if your draw length is 31" (like mine) and your bow's max draw is 28" (a very common draw length) you are overdrawing the bow by 3" and that could greatly shorten your bow's lifespan. It also introduces stacking to the equation which causes the bow to increase in draw weight dramatically due to be overdrawn. That means that your 45lb draw at 28" could end up being closer to 50lbs or maybe even 55lbs and depending on the bow as high as 60lbs at 31". That makes accuracy considerably more difficult and stresses the bow too much.
Personally I'd go with a bow that had a slightly longer draw length than what your draw length is... within an inch really. Some people will say that its ok to overdraw your bow by an inch too but I'd rather be safe than sorry with a bow. I've personally seen someone on the line (at an SCA event) have their lower bow limb break and the end come swinging around like a whip on the bowstring. It wrapped itself around his neck and the end hit him in the cheek. It sure didn't look like fun.
As for bow length vs. draw length - erm what I've seen is that bow length has something to do with draw length too but there isn't a direct ratio. I've seen little a 72" long bow with only 26" of draw to a 56" recurve with 32" of draw. I'm not an expert boyer but I think it has something to do with how the limbs are made and shaped. If you were to buy a custom bow you could have a bow made to your desired draw length and weight... and it could be whatever length you wanted within reason.
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Post by caferacer on Jun 30, 2012 0:30:45 GMT
I was reading about "stacking" from what I gather it is the point at which the bow suddenly becomes very hard to draw back any further, so if a bow reaches that point before I reach full draw, I need to look for a bow with a longer draw? but if I reach full draw before the bow starts to "stack" with an inch or so to spare, then I am good? is this just checked be "feel" or is there a more scientific method? :ugeek:
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Post by chrisperoni on Jun 30, 2012 2:44:20 GMT
Stacking can occur throughout your draw. A properly made bow will continue to increase in poundage evenly as you draw- it will not stack. For example every inch you draw back the string another 2lbs is added to the weight you're drawing. Stacking can be several things; when the poundage gets progressively heavier, ie the first 1" of draw is 2lbs, the next inch 2.5lbs then 3lbs and so on-- or it's also when the draw is uneven, ie first few inches = 2lbs, the next inch is 4lbs, next is 1lb, then 2.5lbs and so on-- or if the weight suddenly increases ie the first many inches are even weight per, then all of a sudden the weight doubles etc. Stuff like that. Stacking is a sign of poorly made limbs (mostly) and is not fun to pull. Measuring for poundage of a bow is typically done at a 28" draw length- that means when a bow is listed at 45lbs it means when the string is drawn 28" the weight is at 45lbs. A good bow is fine to draw more or less by a few inches as everyone has a different draw length. What you want to know is if your bow is suitable for your draw length. For example the limbs on my Osprey are rated at 45lbs, but the stats on the selling page for it say it's good for draw lengths up to 30" - so that means it's made with the understanding that some might draw it further than 28". Let's say I draw to your length (I pretty much do anyway), when I pull my string I'm holding just about 47lbs (with some rounding off here and there when calculating. I know for my draw length this bow is fine. As Sam said when in doubt or for saftey reasons it's better to draw a bow less than it's built for and be shooting less weight then it says it will on paper, vs. pushing a bow past it's recommended use. For my bow every 1" of draw is 1.61lbs and it's even throughout- stack free baby! generally the longer a bow the smoother the draw (read- no stacking) however that's not a perfect system as there is much left to the particular design and build of the bow. For example two bows might be the same length- both 60". However one has a 25" riser, leaving 17.5" limbs on each end. The other bow has a 18" riser, leaving 21" limbs on each end. This bow with longer limbs would have the smoother draw. Those longer limbs can curve more gently as they are pulled away from that riser. Actually if you look at the bows on Andover you see they state 2 lengths and the draw length each is good for- that's because they sell limbs in two sizes- the longer limbs let me draw back further safely and smoothly. www.andoverarchery.com/Products/ ... g_bows.htm
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Taran
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Post by Taran on Jun 30, 2012 6:53:07 GMT
45# really is not a bad place to start. Unless you have some physical problem, if you can't pull it 100 times in a row without rest, you will with only a little practice. It's not hard to work into a 45pounder. Crossing 50# is where a normal, healthy adult starts to take on some risk of injury by pulling too heavy a bow.
This is not to say that I Recommend a 45# pull for a beginner, just that if you are set on it, you should be fine. Your aim will suck until you have the strength and endurance to train beyond just that single piece of the sport, but you aren't going to get hurt or really risk shooting someone behind or next to you because you lost control.
THE single most important thing, though, is draw length. The wrong length and you will either destroy the bow in short order or never get full function out of it, depending on if the draw length is too short or too long. You Must find out what your draw length is and get a bow that matches it. The archery shop you are looking at should have the tools to find out what it is.
I see you are on the East Coast. If you are within a few hours of Lancaster, PA, there is a custom bowyer there who does a fantastic job and will help you pick your first bow and give some teaching in drawing and loosing and doesn't charge too much for it. I get mine and my wife's bows from him.
My understanding of stacking is that the 1"=1.61Lbs of force to pull Is the stacking. The farther you pull, the more force you must apply to the pull. The force you must apply to get that additional inch "stacks" on top of the force you applied to get the previous inch.
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Post by caferacer on Jun 30, 2012 12:05:03 GMT
how do I determine the draw length of a bow? all the bows I see for sale give the length and poundage but not the draw length ? according to the measurements I have made I need something with a draw length of 29" - 30" is it possible that the Bear tigercat has a draw length longer than 30"? while it is marked 45LBS it doesn't feel that heavy I have been looking at the Bear Grizzly, both new and used, www.beararcheryproducts.com/bows ... al/grizzly
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Post by chrisperoni on Jun 30, 2012 15:33:16 GMT
One way to determine draw length is to draw a bow and have it measured for you. You nock an arrow which has not been cut to length and pull it back to your full draw, then someone measures it for you. Bow shops usually keep an arrow on hand with measurements marked on it for easy reference. Now just to throw you off don't forget you'll need arrows and the length of these, while related to your draw length, will also vary depending on how you want to set up and shoot. I am assuming sinde you like the single piece recurve then you like to shoot with no gadgets so I figure you want to shoot of the shelf itself- right?
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Post by caferacer on Jun 30, 2012 22:23:43 GMT
some more information and a new bow I took a ride out to SHAW'S traditional archery in Boyertown today philadelphia.craigslist.org/spo/2972044481.htmlvery nice people, they have a little shop in the basement of there home and only deal in traditional archery, no wheels! what they told me is compound bows are draw length specific, but traditional recurve and long bows are standard at 28" that is where the draw weight is measured, you will gain or loose about 2LBS for every inch, example a 40LBS bow at 26" draw will be 36LBS at 30" draw it will be 44LBS so after trying out a half dozen bow's I wound up where I began, a Bear tigercat, this one is a 62" with a 38LBS draw, (I draw 29 1/2" as measured with a marked arrow so it should be about 40LBS+ ) they threw in a used glove, stringer, bow sock, and one arrow (to practice with) they recommended 30" aluminum 1916 with a 145 tip, ($52 a half dozen) it also included a NEW string, just like the first tigercat I tried, this one just felt right, and I love the look of it as well, on the way out I stopped at Wapiti archers of Pennsylvania wapitiarcherspa.com/index.htmltomorrow is their monthly open house, so I am going to go and try my new bow (wish me luck)
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Post by chrisperoni on Jun 30, 2012 23:08:24 GMT
the numbers they gave you sound a lot like what I expected for the bow/weight/length etc. (it's nice to have a pro confirm my amateur talking lol) The arrow length of 30" sounds good too if you are shooting target tips off your shelf. Are you? What do the tips looks like on your arrows? and do you have any sort of arrow rest attached to your bow (I'd expect not)? Or is it just the arrow right on the flat shelf on the riser? Like I said your draw is right about same as mine and I shoot 30" arrows of the shelf as well. I believe shorter is better & imho there's no need for an arrow tip to be sticking out past a riser unless it's a broadhead. Did they get into arrow spine info for you at the store? The tip weight that SHAW'S gave you sounds heavy to me. Standard is 100grain, sometimes I go 125 but not heavier. I guess it depends on the shafts they sell though. Their price for arrows is not bad but a bit more than I like to pay. -- Try Andover's Easton Gamgetter XX75's = $36 per 1/2 doz. for your next order, can choose length and tip , fletching colours, and will do barred for 10c per feather- www.andoverarchery.com/Products/ ... shafts.htm -I forget what spine mine are though- but Mark at Andover knows me and my bow From their site: "Easton Gamegetter XX75 aluminum arrows. Can be shot from either a recurve or compound bow. These feather fletched arrows are highly recommended for use with your recurve bow. We hand fletch these with solid colored turkey feathers ( barred colors shown are a slight upcharge ). WE will cut them to your desired length and install the screw in inserts and include field point with your purchase. Most colors of fletching are available for special orders, no extra charge just an extra to make them up. Barred colored fletching are available for an additional 10 cents per feather. $36.00 per 1/2 Dozen"Pic of some of mine: One thing about arrows is once you find a kind you like then you should settle on those for consistency. Then again some people like the idea of being able to adapt to different situations. For me I only shoot target practice so it makes sense to minimize variables.
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Post by caferacer on Jul 1, 2012 0:01:32 GMT
here are some pics, I guess I need to learn about arrows now no add ons just shooting from the shelf on the bow, simple and basic K.I.S.S. for now, you know :mrgreen:
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