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Post by ineffableone on Mar 12, 2012 4:17:57 GMT
Some things to consider
Leather rots in humid moist conditions also. It also dry rots. Wet leather takes much longer to dry than cloth.
Ito style handle wrapping is easily replaceable, while a form fitted leather wrap is less easy.
Swords in warfare are consumables. Most would not last through more than a few battles before damaged beyond use and recycled. No matter what culture, swords in combat got damaged and were considered consumables and were often mass produced in these times with inferior fittings since they were in essence disposable. Interestingly, there is historically leather tsuba that were often used during war time in place of more expensive metal ones. There are few remaining examples of these since they tend to rot, and were considered disposable.
My first point on why Japan used silk cloth wrap I think still is the most valid explanation. While tradition may later held sway. The simple fact is Japan was not a big leather producing nation, but was a big silk producing nation. If Europe had silk the way Japan did they might have used the tough durable fiber also. However it was expensive when it reached Europe and negated the benefits it might have for use in combat swords. In Europe leather was readily available and made a good product for handle wrapping.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2012 5:14:02 GMT
Some good points there! Yes leather does rot, it is of organic origin, but take a moment, look down at your feet - what are your shoes made of? Leather shoes/boots do survive the elements if properly treated, and leather that goes outdoors always is. Leather shoes last a few years even through rain! Silk is inferior a material. If you're going hiking up a muddy mountain in wet weather, would you wear sturdy leather boots or a pair of silk slippers? Swords are not consumables, they are tools which wear. Fabric wrap is consumable like disposable razors and tampons. Just think of great empires, travelling for years on end, fighting their way to their ultimate destination, whether it's Alexander's empire, the romans or the crusaders. It's not like the crusaders could carry an endless supply of swords, their weapons need to last years, and many battles. True, the Japanese use silk because leather doesn't feature much in their culture. Like they make their building interiors from bamboo and rice paper. Similarly, they don't use dairy products but use soy derived equivalents. They use what they have. You've reversed the logic though here, Europe did get silk, for making ladies handkerchiefs, scarves and other fashion fineries. Swords were very expensive at those times, and if there was any merit in using a non-durable material, they would have jumped on the opportunity. There is much wishful thinking that the Japanese mythologising is true, and that the Japanese really do have the merit they claim to have, both of which are regrettably false. We like their swords as aesthetically pleasing art collectables, but we can't infer to the Japanese any claims of superiority, or virtues beyond what they have really earned. Their nationalistic and hardline traditionalist mindset yearns for recognition and pride, especially amongst the other nations of the world, so they can feel 'more special' but they have no real grounds to do so, so they make up a fabricated mythical history to compensate. The problem is that fabricated national pride has its very ugly side, racial superiority, and all the nonsensical stories about the superiority of katana, and the materials that make a katana, feed this very ugly side of the Japanese culture. As a case in point, the Japanese emperors and the imperial family were regaded to be living deities (kami) because they claimed that they were direct descendants of the Shinto Sun Goddess Amaterasu, and they stuck rigidly to this belief unil the end of WWII. The Japanese were forced to admit that this was utterly false as part of the terms of surrender at the end of World War II. Remember, the Europeans were the innovators, the Japanese weren't. Kind of like why they copied chinese swords at the beginning of their history, why the copied western swords on their kyu gunto in the 1930's, like they copied portugese guns, like they copy western electronics,, like they copy western automobile technology, like they copy western culture, like they.... You get my drift. Lets not try to elevate the Japanese to a level of their fabricated cultural myths - a lot of their stuff was so far behind China and Europe, and that's just historical fact.
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Post by Jakeonthekob on Mar 12, 2012 6:03:38 GMT
I like the feel of silk in my hands XD I have never actually used a pure leather wrapped tsuka but I do have the Fred Lohman tsunami-ito which is pretty durable over long periods of time (like maybe a decade?). Granted everyone here is talking about decades and centuries of use and wear of handle wrapping materials. And as Ricky pointed out... Pure leather snapped on me because I pulled too tight. So as thin strands of ito... I don't think I will ever use any leather-type ito again besides tsunami-ito. I can pull good quality cotton and silk as hard as I want because the tensile strength is extremely strong due to the inherent strength of the silk fibers as well as the weaving of the actual ito so I don't really have to worry about it snapping on me.
Also, I have like 0% knowledge on western swords so I can't really say anything.
However, just think.... Sword handles made out of carbon fiber or other composite materials which aid shock absorption and are able to be accurately cast out of 1 piece so that you don't have to worry about splitting handles! Ahh... the dream! XD
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2012 7:30:17 GMT
Now we're talking progress, if you ever find anyone making such a thing, we'll all be interested!
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Post by Kumdoalan on Mar 12, 2012 10:12:32 GMT
If you were about to order a SBG Katana, would you get it with the standard cotton handle wrap?
OR....
Would you spring for the extra $25 worth of leather handle wrapping?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2012 11:55:57 GMT
Realistically speaking, the style of nearly all the reproduction katana is an Edo period style aristocrat's dress sword, which is what everyone seems to be buying and collecting, me included. Since these are what I call "pampered swords", it makes no difference what you make the wrap out of, the only criteria I would use is "is this wrap comfortable for me?" and "do I like the look of this wrap?" If I liked the feel of leather, I'd get a leather grip. Best advice is go to any shop that sells swords and handle the different wrapping materials to see what you like, and then order your SBG katana with that material. There's really no distinction between sword owners if they use leather, silk or cotton, it's just personal preference. I'd say the least common wrap I see used is leather, most people seem to use cotton or silk. With my katana, I've somehow ended up with cotton wrapping, simply because the models I've liked the look of only came with cotton wrap. Hope this helps and apologies for the long winded history detour earlier.
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Post by Lonely Wolf Forge on Mar 12, 2012 13:25:03 GMT
alot of good points in this post, i didnt know alot of that about the Japanese, as for ito choice...nowadays who cares? if it looks good and you like it, get it. none of us are gonna go on a 15 year campaign of slaughter and carnage with nothing to aid us but the sword at our side.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2012 13:54:35 GMT
And if you do, get the Hanwei Tactical Katana, it is all synthetic and metal, has a rustproof coating, and can be hosed down for cleaning when you're done! :lol:
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Post by Kumdoalan on Mar 12, 2012 14:30:58 GMT
Notice I asked if "you" were about to order a SBG Katana...
I am asking for YOUR decision as to what YOU would get?
and once you have an answer, then tell me why you came to that decision?..what factors are important to YOU?
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Mar 12, 2012 14:53:28 GMT
Good points there Blackthorn, I had a thought in the back of my head that this question by OP was mainly considering japanese blades. Japanese have been only a small portion of sword using civilizations like you said and thats why I asked if they were meant in here. I know at least chinese have used some cloth materials on some of their hilts too.
As for katana vs. longsword, katana vs. dao, I will not touch that with a 10 shaku pole... Swords of each culture were perfected for their own use and every sword type evoled in the hands of time.
As for the warfare use, it was hard for swords. Even though we tend to have the romanticized picture of swordfights like Blackthron noted, in real battle people would be wearing armor too. Japanese have had many different types of yoroi throughout their history, because that similar to other weapons had to evolve too. Now armors were worn by almost every culture throughout the history of warfare, of course people would want to protect their lives as much as possible (there are always myths and legends I'm talking about average warrior here). Sword is not an ideal weapon against an armored opponent in my book, and therefore using any sword be it longsword, katana etc. you would get bad hits that will shock hard. Kinda like hitting the metal barrel.
I believe even in Edo period you would be wearing some armor in case you had a strong feeling that a fight is coming, I know I would have.
I believe that tsuka of japanese sword had to be replaced fairly often. Can't say anything about historical euro-swords but I would believe that any hilt type that has wood-elements in it is bound to be replaced sooner or later.
I know that some iaidoka will have to have their swords rewrapped from time to time, even if the tsukamaki would be leather or silk and made by good tsukamakishi. Don't know but I could guess that some hema-guys will have to have their leather grips redone every now and then too. I tend to think the grips as consumables.
I don't think that japanese thought that western sword would be superior, the kyu-gunto just dates to the 3rd and 4th wave of western culture invading Japan at the time.
Even though I'm a westerner, I've always thought that western people have always have the most annoying tendency to think them being superior to anyone else and meddle with businesses they could and should stay away from. Not going to go into political & religious conversation in here, as that would ruin this good conversation we have going in here.
And I would really like to own an Itomaki No Tachi with leather hiramaki but unfortunately I cannot yet to afford one. Just wanted to point this out showing that I don't mean to trash leather as it was widely used in Japan too, just wanting to keep a good conversation up.
I personally wouldn't invest 25$ for leather-ito on SBG katana, like I said earlier the workmanship of chinese forges with leather has been somewhat mediocre in the past (haven't eyed production sword market that much in the recent years). But it is (will be) your or your friends sword so it's a matter of choice and you should choose the one you like the most.
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Post by Kumdoalan on Mar 12, 2012 15:51:42 GMT
This points out something important about this forum too that supports your view.
While there are plenty of posted comments and topics talking about what a great deal a SBG sword is, (and I have no doubt that it is a great deal and worth every cent)....I have yet to find even one short comment in support of the leather wrapping offered on the SBG katana?..
Im not saying there is none, Im just saying that such posts seem very hard for me to find..... :?:
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2012 15:56:58 GMT
[/b][/quote][/quote] Honestly for most of our purposes it just comes down to personal preference. That's probably why you haven't found anything about it, just how it would probably be hard to find a post supporting the blue ito option. The discussion here is interesting but it's not something to worry about when making your decision. After all, it's your sword.
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Post by Elheru Aran on Mar 12, 2012 16:48:35 GMT
I will note that in Oakeshott's Records of the Medieval Sword, there are a number of Euro swords with cloth, cord, or thread wrappings; one in particular that leaps to mind, he described as having a 'complex knotted cord' covering, somewhat like a net.
Bearing in mind that it's quite possible that these were swords owned by people who could afford to have fancy hilt treatments-- Japan wasn't the only place to have show-off blades-- you do have to ask, honestly, how difficult is it for even Joe Ale-Tankard to replace a simple Euro grip wrap when it wears?
There's also another note in there, in that while medieval manufacturing was far more advanced than most people realize, things were still valuable enough that people took care of their possessions and tried to make them last as long as possible. They'd use a knife until it wore down to a sliver, or broke. Along these lines, I'd imagine that they'd take care of their swords, including waxing the leather grips, and on occasion replacing them.
As such, the durability and practicality of leather really isn't an issue for Euro swords, especially given the simplicity and strength of the single-piece wrap as opposed to the complex Japanese system of same, itomaki, and menuki. Complex systems are always more likely to fail than simple.
A last note: The 'prestige' blades are the ones that tend to get preserved most often. Nobles' swords, those donated to churches or museums... one of the best preserved swords in Europe is the St. Maurice of Turin sword. Similarly, the most common antique nihonto, those that are now in museums or highly distinguished private collections, are those owned and donated by the wealthy... they aren't necessarily representative of everyday functional and fighting blades of past eras, when swords wouldn't have been donated, they would've been *used*. Blackthorn is exactly correct in saying that the majority of katana today are representative of peacetime prestige blades, not necessarily swords that were actually used for fighting. Think of the contrast between a 17th century smallsword and a Crusader's blade, for example...
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Post by Kumdoalan on Mar 12, 2012 16:57:13 GMT
I have found a few posts talking about how great the sparkle blue saya is...thats kinda one of the reasons i have decided to go with the color for my sword.
But while I can find posts supporting most all the different swords and their designs, i cant seem to find anyone who has ordered the SBG custom with leather, or who is willing to post a independent point of view on the item, to let a guy know how it ended up.
I know Paul has posted that I will not find anything listed on the SBG website that he would not want on a sword of his own...its just that before i decided to order leather or to not order leather I really would like to hear from someone who has this same leather wrapping from the same place and who has a point of view about it now....
I hope I will do what I think is best, but it's hard to decide without the items in front of me to judge. the only people who have a first-hand experience with the leather are people who have ordered it...and so far they are most hard to track down....
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on Mar 12, 2012 17:03:38 GMT
I would not personally order the SBG sword with the leather options. My reasons for this are as follows... 1. I'm not a big fan of the look of leather on a Katana. I realize that some historical examples did use leather... but silk ito was by far more common, and the leather just looks wrong to me. 2. I do believe that leather would be slippery in hand when your hands get sweaty. 3. IMO leather is harder to do well then cotton or silk ito on Katana. Thus unless someone really good was doing the itomaki and paying careful attention to it... I wouldn't want to risk it. 4. I don't like the feel of leather on Katana. I prefer something like the tsunami ito that Loman uses.
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Post by Dr. Whom on Mar 12, 2012 17:18:29 GMT
Leather makes it happen...Everyone who was ever cool, wore leather. James Dean - leather jacket; Marlon Brando - leather jacket; Arthur Fonzerelli - leather jacket, etc... Katanas are cool wrapped in leather Silk and premium cotton are probably better for everyday use though
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Post by frankthebunny on Mar 13, 2012 1:04:39 GMT
in my opinion I would go with cotton ito on your sbg katana. I don't think it will be high quality Japanese cotton but synthetic ito feels horrible and the leather being offered, if it's even genuine, looks cheap and of poor quality. even though the cotton ito also looks to be of poor quality, at least it's a natural material.
my personal opinion on the sbg katana in general is that I would probably suggest buying a different sword altogether. I know that the appeal is that you get to choose your own colors and fittings but to me this doesn't amount to much if all of those options are of low quality material and executed poorly as well. it would most likely be more expensive to buy a stock katana of decent quality and pay to have someone modify it or to buy a katana of better quality that is already the way you want it. I understand that it's being sold as a entry level sword but I think you could do much better these days if you look around. there are entry level katana going for under $100. again, the appeal is that you can choose your fittings and other options but at the end of the day what good is a bunch of low quality stuff that happens to be the color you like? if you like the idea of buying from the sbg store I would go for one of their other offerings like the black dragon. I apologize that I am stating something that was not a direct answer to any of your questions but I just thought you might appreciate an opinion on the sword itself.
leather ito can be very nice on a katana if it is of good quality and the tsukamaki is done properly but it ultimately comes down to personal preference. I don't agree that tsuka were more fragile than other types of sword hilts just because of the materials it was made from. consider that you have a piece of wood that is strong and also shock absorbent wrapped in a piece of samegawa which is incredibly strong itself and when sealed with clear or black lacquer would also be quite resistant to water, sweat and blood then it is wrapped tightly in cotton, silk or leather which can be treated to resist moisture or even when not coated would eventually become element more resistant from the build up of natural oils from your hands. the fittings if iron, were intentionally rusted to prevent further rusting from water, blood, sweat or humidity and if not iron than probably made of a metal that is naturally rust resistant like brass, copper or gold/silver alloys. I would feel confident that a tsuka that was made and wrapped properly could last a very long time and stand up to various elements quite well.
just my opinion of course
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Post by Kumdoalan on Mar 13, 2012 2:04:28 GMT
a question: Can you get the Black Dragon with a "Folded" blade? If a person can, then that is a matter I would like to talk about with you as to why you would suggest that blade over another?
As far as I know, the blade steel and design is the same as the SBG custom , or am I in error about that?
I will have to try to start a topic about this other sword in the hope of finding a person who owns the Dragon.
I will take very serious your comments,
Im seeking such advice from your guys who know about this stuff. I have sent you a Private Message.
Just from the photo of the Black Dragon it seems to be the total opposite of the look I was going for. The Black Dragon is ...well....it's black...it's subdued....it's understated..... THATS JUST NOT ME!
I was looking for a sword with "pop"... A sword that catches the eye from 100 feet away. A sword that brings a smile to my face...
From what im seeing just in the photos, the Black Dragon is not a good match for my needs.
So, now convince me Im wrong....
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Post by frankthebunny on Mar 13, 2012 3:38:20 GMT
I'm in no way trying to talk you out of something or trying to convince anyone they are wrong. I am just giving my opinion on these particular swords. I am in no way an expert on Japanese style replica production katana but I have handled enough that I know when the "package looks pretty" but might not be everything it appears. honestly, I don't know many experienced sword collectors who have already purchased a number of katana that would go back and buy one of these swords.
it's labeled as an entry level sword which to me implies that the consumer would eventually make a step up later on to a better sword. that being the case, I wouldn't spend that kind of money on it now since there are many swords of better quality that are around the same price. this is no doubt an awkward opinion to express here as they are sold by sbg but I have to be honest. in my humble opinion, the only thing that is decent about them is the blade (non folded) while the steel has been proven tough and the kissaki and polish are a bit better than previous models, the termination of the hi could still use some work and the rest is well, just cheap. the fittings, same and ito are low quality and would likely have to be replaced before too long anyway. I have read that the synthetic silk ito is comparable to genuine silk and that many actually prefer it to the real thing. I have yet to hear someone agree with that on any forum I've been on.
I think the best thing a person new to swords could do is to find this forum. there is so much great information here and many people that are willing to share what they know, you can really learn a lot quickly. what I think could be a bad move for many new to swords would be to find the sbg store first and purchase something without making it here before hand. many of the reviews and products are old and outdated and there are so many other products on the market that far out shine the ones sold there. I see so many people make their first post asking which they should buy, a Cheness an sbg custom or a ronin. once they spend a little time here on the forum there suddenly seems to be a much wider selection they are considering.
I'm not here to bash sbg swords or any other brands they sell and I do love this forum and have done what I could to support it but I wanted to be honest with my opinions in the hopes that you will find a sword that you are truly happy with. take a look through the many reviews here and be sure to check out the awesome katana buying guide put together by Adrian, I'm sure you will find a ton of valuable info there to help you with your katana purchase.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2012 3:43:18 GMT
No, there is no "wrong", so you're not wrong to want a katana that really stands out! it's all about personal taste and preference to a great degree. I personally like understated katana designs with cotton ito (though I have a love-hate relationship with Japanese sword hilts - as much as I hate the whole design of tsuka/ito, I love looking at a well made one, especially frankthebunny's work, and would love to have him re-wrap one of my katanas - who ever said collectors have to be rational!), while others may like something that really stands out. We all buy our first Japanese sword and it may not be "perfect", but it's that important first step that we all go through. Then we decide to customise our swords to make them more "ours" - exactly how we want them. You see, the Japanese style handles I love to hate have one real major advantage over other styles of swords, you can extensively customise them to death - but your blades styles nearly all look the same Iwell almost)!
My first katana was a Global Gear Sakura with a purple synthetic ito and a heavy iron very understated sakura (cherry blossom) tsuba (guard). The fittings weren't to my taste, but they were close as I could get to "understated", but I loved the blade, so I bought it. I'm now customising it to make it more the way I like. I remember all the indecision when buying my first sword, but when you take the plunge, and buy one, take it home and open the box, well, iits the beginning of a very expensive hobby, sword collection. We all start of buying a cheap, entry level katana of decent quality, and then we usually end up getting more expensive ones as we get a taste for better made swords. Those of us with some discipline just stick to the entry level and are happy!! I now have seven katanas and one tanto in my collection... And Japanese swords only make a part of my collection!
Ther are a lot of Japanese sword vendors, heavens, almost too many choices, look at you budget, and check out what all the various vendors are offering, there's got to be something you like. Also, most importantly, get a sword that's really "you", that you like the look of, and don't worry what anyone elase thinks, because it's your sword!
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