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Post by Elysian on Feb 20, 2012 0:42:28 GMT
Good morrow everyone; I've recently come across a few heavily modified versions of more or less traditional style blades which got me thinking in sum about three things. ·Hybrid Blades ·Functional Fantasy designs ·Ways in which weight/ balance/ overall performance of a blade might be altered through various alloy bonding/ lamination processes, etc... First off, one of the coolest FUNCTIONAL hybrids I've seen in a while: Video of this can be found here (FitzenKnives) : And if you can mount a rapier hilt on a giant bowie, who's to say you can't mount it on something bigger, a bastard sword, or possibly even on one of Cold Steel's beater mono-steel blades? Point being, find a functional design from one place, and "crossbreed" it with a completely different design from somewhere else in the world. There's plenty of fantasy designs floating around out there, some of them functional, most of them not; but I've only seen a few to cross styles like this, Image posted above being the most functional, if not quite practical. :lol: Anyone ever thought of a two-handed basket-hilt sword? Basket-Hilt Bagua Sabre? etc... Now the obvious problem with this is the fact that each sword, and each specific part of that sword was designed for a definite purpose, and meant to be used in a particular way that is unique and specific only to it. The difficult part of this "crossbreeding" style is to first- make it in a way that is unobtrusive (for the most part), and coincides with the sword's style- both in looks and function. Another obstacle to be overcome is balance and handling, so if one were to mount a basket-hilt on a claymore, that hilt would have to be enlarged to the point at which it wouldn't compromise performance significantly, etc... As long as we're talking about 'fantasy' blades, lets discuss some shall we? This one for instance: Art Created by Wen-JR on Deviantart Lets be honest, many fantasy designers design blades that are more often than not appealing only to the eye, and neglect any sort of physics that may apply to the sword. Personally I too am a fan of broad blades, but not so much that you need a crane on the other side to lift the bloody thing. This brings me to my next point of laminated alloys, say a hardened steel cutting core, with slabs of Titanium on either side that make up most of the fantasy elements including the ability to make a broad blade handle similarly to one a fraction of it's size (Obviously the buster sword is an exaggeration). Using a lamination process (will not only make it expensive as all hell to make but...) may make it a bit more "realistic" to have exaggerated blade designs that can actually perform the functions of a sword, and not remain in a digital, or wall-hanger state. So, What do you think? Any Ideas/ Criticisms welcomed! Edit: I will be doing some sketches of what I think are compatible designs, might post a few depending on how good they turn out, if you'd like to see an attempt at crossbreeding your two favorite swords... Ideas are always welcomed. :mrgreen:
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Post by iealchemist on Feb 20, 2012 6:08:08 GMT
For the Titanium lamination sword thing: -Firstly, welding together two different metals often gets complicated, I'm not sure how difficult steel and titanium are to bond, but I'm guessing not easy, and the strength of the weld probably wouldn't be too great. *EDIT - Google searches says titanium to carbon steel = nigh impossible. A mechanical coupling is recommended. -Secondly, titanium isn't exactly a super metal even without worrying about hardness. It has a greater strength to weight ratio to steel, but it's much less dense. To get the same amount of strength that steel would provide it would be lighter, but the slabs of titanium would be much larger. Since you want a thinner cross section on a blade, this would be counter productive.
On the other hand, if you had a way to weld the metals effectively, you could do something more like the buster sword where the main body is titanium, and the edge is steel. It would be large, but possibly light enough to use (it might need to be a bit smaller). The main point is that the sword needs to be laminated across the profile (like viking swords or something like a wariha tetsu katana lamination) so that the bulk of the titanium does not add to the profile.
Personally I think it would be better to use carbon-fiber for such a sword, since carbon fiber has an ever higher strength to weight ratio than titanium, to the point that even as light as it is, a piece of carbon fiber the same size as a piece of steel produces much more strength. As long as the Carbon fiber sections are not in places which are used for blocking/parrying it could be very effective. Also CF only really has high tensile strength, not compressive strength, so it needs to be oriented correctly.
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Post by Lonely Wolf Forge on Feb 20, 2012 13:11:54 GMT
why not just cut the dimensions down a litte....does it really need t be a foot wide? add hollow grind and a deep fuller, Like John Lundemo did on when he made The Dragonslayer from Berserk. and then, intead of rying to make the sword lighter, take a 6 month vacation to Mother Russia...and Grow Stronger :lol:
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Post by Elysian on Feb 20, 2012 23:27:36 GMT
So you're saying send that pic and about $10,000 to Warren Thomas and have him worry about it? :lol: Also about the Titanium laminate, at the time of the post I was looking at a patent document, I'll try to link it If I can find it again. Here it is: www.google.com/patents/US5256496 Btw, the buster sword was an over-exaggeration used to emphasize a point haha. I guess I should clean up my posts a little (a bit new to forums, sorry :oops: ) Main point was the ability to incorporate a somewhat exaggerated blade (not quite as wide as the buster sword) without significantly affecting handling and overall performance. Considering parrying, when was the last time you had to fight off a dozen rogue ninjas in the middle of the night? :lol: This is a decent example of what I'm trying to get across. Have something as wide as that beheading Talwar handle similarly to a sword half it's width in terms of weight, Most people can't swing something like that effectively (if at all) with one hand. Yes it is rather cumbersome, but reducing the weight to half the original could make it a viable weapon, as opposed to a purely ceremonial (if you think beheading is very ceremonial... :? ) tool... Edit: Looks like OdinBlades www.odinblades.com/ has some pretty cool crossovers. Here's something similar to what I was going for. Pic of their 'Guardian Warder', also quite fond of the 'Zweihander'.
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Post by iealchemist on Feb 21, 2012 3:58:16 GMT
Warren Thomas? Who's that? *Looks up on Google* ...Whoa. To be honest I don't know how much of an advantage that type of sword would give you, but it still looks awesome As far as hybrids go, I've always liked the rapier-bastard sword combination, where the blade is bastard sword length and handle allow one or two hands, but with a rapier like guard, where it protects most of the hand/hands. A bit like darksword's hand and a half saber but double edged and with a more curved and ornate guard.
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Post by Lonely Wolf Forge on Feb 21, 2012 13:26:55 GMT
i toyed with the idea of a ultra light/fast saber/rapier bastardisation
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2012 20:10:36 GMT
Titanium is useless as a sword making material or even a blade material for that matter, unless you are specifically looking to build a non-magnetic utility mine to use in minefields when trying to pry out land mines, or a corrosion resistant blade that gets a lot of use in seawater, and don't expect a super sharp edge ofr good edge retention.
The form of most swords is primarily dictated by function, they look the way they do because of what they're designed to do. It's a case of function over form. Swordmakers can add their personal touches and customizations to the design ato add to the asthetics, but they need to stay within specific paramenters to keep the tool useful for its intended purpose.
With many of the fantasy blades and unusual hybrids, it's all about form, appearance, looks, aesthetics - without regards for purpose and function. It's the reverse case here, with form over function, so they are probably useless as functional swords, but fulfil their role as 'sword-shaped art'.
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Post by Elysian on Feb 21, 2012 23:27:09 GMT
^ We've established that. Did you take the time to read what I was trying to get across? :roll: :lol:
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Post by Unit731 on Feb 21, 2012 23:49:25 GMT
Depends on the function. If it is ceremonial then it usually isn't built for battle or martial arts, thus it doesn't necessarily require the same balance a war sword/dueling sword might. An executioner's sword is a good example of this. It functions well enough for it's purpose, but wouldn't be ideal for a duel.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2012 3:15:21 GMT
Good point. You'll find a lot of ceremonial Japanese swords, and ceremonial Chinese kwandao that are of sizes and weight that are far beyond the scope of any human to wield. Often highly decorative, their purpose is ass ceremonial tools, not tools of warfare.
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Post by Elysian on Feb 22, 2012 4:24:15 GMT
Some of those were also used for strength training possibly?
Edit: Speak of the devil... :lol:
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2012 13:11:22 GMT
Some were most definitely used for strength training and examinations - the large chinese halberds (kwan dao) were used in tests of strength in the examinations of officers in the military. During the Qing dynasty, military candidates were required to perform with extremely heavy versions of the kwan dao to pass their exams.
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Post by Elysian on Feb 23, 2012 7:57:39 GMT
I know most of you are probably familiar with Kit Rae's fantasy designs, and while some of them are rather appealing, they are basically aesthetic only. Decent construction, and probably one of the more solid pieces of fantasy swords out there within the affordable ~$100 price range. Not quite functional, but they do make good wall-hangers. Here are a few hilt designs that appealed to me somewhat. Also, they do this interesting...err...Blade Menuki? I guess you could call it that; not quite sure as to how I feel about it, but it is different. Here are a few pics I cropped and put together to take up a bit less space. I would prefer the top reverse handle in a Chinese-style cord wrap, as opposed to the current leathery Japanese style (Which does look rather sloppy... :? ) ; thats mainly why the CS "Chinese War Sword" is on there. quite fond of that Exotath pommel. I think that would look rather nice on a hand and a half sword without making it too gimmicky... Most of this is for inspiration for future designs, those of you who like doing that, including myself... :lol: :ugeek:
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Post by Lonely Wolf Forge on Feb 23, 2012 14:26:58 GMT
alot of ppl bash the kit rae designs, but honestly i think alot of them are very nice looking, Far from practical weapons of war, but very cool looking nonetheless
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Post by Elysian on Feb 24, 2012 7:49:18 GMT
- Mainly because they are fantasy designs. Honestly, I think most of the 'fantasy' should occur on the hilt, pommel, and guard. This way the blade doesn't have all the gimmicky cutouts that IMHO, take away from the sword as an overall piece. Of course there are a few exceptions, but that's my overall opinion... A few more inspiring/ interesting pieces... Also, a bit curious about what that rough 'forge blackened' (Could someone enlighten me on what it's really called? :oops: ) err... "finish" - or rather lack of one is. I've seen a few blades (mostly knives) with this sort of thing going on, not really sure what to call it :? All I know is that I like it a lot! Think it could work pretty well on a sword (and I think I know exactly which one...) For anyone interested, the Tsuba on the left is done by Joe Walters. A simple search for "Joe Walter's seasoned katana" should bring up a lot of interesting, and detailed images (a bit too many to post here). I absolutely love the way his saya looks; couldn't find an HQ image of it though, so sadly I can't post it...
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Post by Lonely Wolf Forge on Feb 24, 2012 15:56:29 GMT
that black stuff is called Fire Scale, and the dents and dings is Just hammer marks.
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Post by Elysian on Feb 25, 2012 8:56:18 GMT
Thanks Saito! Good to finally know what it's called!! :lol: Well, I said I'd be doing some artwork in this thread, and it looks like I have some free time this weekend. Hopefully the pics will come out in focus so I won't have to make them neg. :? Finally came up with something somewhat original that's exactly to my taste. More of a combination of existing styles/ elements, but then again- what isn't? I may do an accompanying tanto with this particular piece, but I'm not quite certain on that part. Essentially, the blade will be a slightly broader version of an Iris Leaf style with a few elements of Rick Barrett's CPM 3V Katana, and a moderately low Yokote line. I am not a big fan of "shiny" things, and as such the Shinogi-ji will be in a forged firescale style. I'm thinking of a very distinct Hamon, and I have to give credit to Saito here for finding this, so +1 to you sir. Edit: Decided to change the Ito and Sageo to a darker colour, in fashion of one of Bugei's Swords. Probably closer to the Peace Sword. The Cerulean-Teal will be saved for another blade. I didn't think a bright, flashy Ito would match the sword's more rustic style very well. Fittings will be a grey-blue Ti, with a Jens Anso cratering pattern similar to this, in Joe Walter's Seasoned Katana style. So Imagine a slightly modified version of the pattern on the knife scale in a darker grey-blue, carried over to where the original fittings are on the seasoned katana- Mainly the Metal sleeve on the Saya's upper, the tsuba, Kojiri, and Kashira. (bottom pic) It's a bit hard to make out, but there is a metal sleeve on the Saya's Upper (where many have lacquered Samegawa) in a worn/ pitted style. A large Snake Menuki will rest in the Tsuka, and overall, the sword will have a very slim (but broad) profile... Now I'm really wishing I was placing a custom order for this... :lol: A bit out of my price range. Drawings should be posted in the next couple days. (is there anything I missed? =o)
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Post by Elysian on Feb 26, 2012 20:47:50 GMT
Preliminary Artwork. It needs a few Adjustments here and there, but for the most part it looks pretty decent. I'll be making a few touch-ups, then making a life-size copy, and perhaps another one in colour. I'm not really a colouring person though, so we'll see. Anyway, here it is. I'll probably do an accompanying tanto in the same style + Life size art when I have the time. P.S. Zooming in helps :lol:
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Post by Elysian on Feb 26, 2012 21:33:56 GMT
Kind of like this one? Some of you have probably already seen this over at www.fableblades.com/ (Thx Kyley) Some more artwork I did a while back, previous posts of these didn't turn out that great, apologies for the repost. That tanto is NOT the one that's going to be accompanying my Katana, albeit it is somewhat similar to what I have in mind for it...
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Post by dylanholderman on Feb 27, 2012 3:52:20 GMT
cool thread but i feel the need to say that complex hilted longswords would have been fairly common in the later part of the middle ages
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