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Post by Dalaran1991 on Jan 30, 2012 21:29:09 GMT
Had it not been for Paul's sword buyer guide I would never have been able to tell a battle-ready sword. Now I'm looking to add a shield to my gear because I've always been that sword and shield person. As I expected, I have no idea how to begin. So many companies claim to have battle-ready shields which are contradictory to which other. At KultofAthena they told me a battle shield must be made of wood with metal rim, while some other places have 16-18 gauge battle ready shield. The price varies greatly too.
Could anyone be so kind to help me learn what are the characteristics of a functional shield? If you can recommend one I would greatly appreciate it. I'm looking for a heater/medieval knight/crusader shield around 100 bucks. Thanks in advance!
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Post by Elheru Aran on Jan 30, 2012 23:42:00 GMT
Interesting situation with this. Historically, Dark Ages at least, theory goes that shields were semi-disposable items, and what little historical evidence we have for them tends towards this-- a single layer of thin planks of wood, like 1/2" or perhaps even 1/4", were used with iron bosses. They'd have fallen apart quickly in combat, but then battles tended to be short and nasty affairs. Afterwards they'd recover the bosses and just make a new shield. Middle Ages is when we start seeing more robust, durable shields with layers of wood and fabric or leather coverings. They still weren't particularly heavy, though; 3-4 pounds at most. For modern-day use: do you intend to display it or actually use it? Display, however strong it is doesn't matter; it just has to hold together. But if you plan to train with it, do SCA or LARP or ARMA or any of the acronym-martial arts, little different. Metal: I think 18 gauge is really too thin, 16 or 14 would be ideal. SCA fighters sometimes use aluminum, I think, but I would go with rolled steel personally, which won't be light. Windlass does make a decent 'rotella' round shield; it's okay if not terribly historically accurate, I've thought about picking it up myself. Wood: You can make a choice between flat or curved. Flat is easy; just cut the appropriate shape out of 1/2" or 3/4" MDF or plywood. For curved, you will need some way to form it and you will have to use two or three 1/4" sheets of plywood glued together. Wooden shields will also need some form of edge reinforcement, otherwise it's liable to receive extra damage during battle. Rawhide is easy and cheap, but some people use sheet metal, brass or steel. There are various tutorials on how to make a shield yourself online; the best one IMO is Ye Olde Gaffer's. www.yeoldegaffers.com/project_shieldpress.aspI'd really trust making your own shield over buying one, honestly... you'll save a LOT on shipping to boot!
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jhart06
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Post by jhart06 on Jan 31, 2012 0:14:25 GMT
I've priced it, and you can make a heater shield for under $50, and usually have bare wood for another left over.
I will warn you, shields do not last forever. Even well made. I've done stage combat with a shield, so if you have any questions Elheru didn't answer(and he covered it brilliantly!) feel free to PM or ask here. Just don't expect more than a year at the most of life on it. Its why I never make my fighting shields very 'pretty'
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Post by 14thforsaken on Jan 31, 2012 5:37:18 GMT
I made a couple of modified heater shields this summer. I tried to document and take pictures of the various steps. Actual material costs were about $60 for both of them since I already had the jigsaws, dremels and other tools I needed. Some of the supplies like paint should had enough left over for multiple shields. Here is a link to the thread I created, hope it helps. viewtopic.php?f=24&t=4923I consider them to be battle ready as they are 3/4" thick dense composite board with metal rims.
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jhart06
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Post by jhart06 on Jan 31, 2012 6:00:40 GMT
They would take a beating, but 12 lbs is ungodly. A good shield shouldn't top 5lbs max. Some things like the Spartan/Roman shield may, but they weren't typically used in solo, but in tandem with others.
I prefer a good targe myself. You can go to lowe's, and if the employee is nice enough, they'll cut the wood for you. I use a garage door handle, padded, and wrapped, for the palm, and a leather strap/buckle system for further back on the forearm. Typically I used brads or other studs, and no metal rim, with as thick a leather cover as I could get. Key thing if it's seeing egular combat, dont put naything irreplacable on it.
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Post by 14thforsaken on Jan 31, 2012 6:48:47 GMT
I know they are heavy. Since I am fairly big, I like a bigger shield, its almost a tower shield for me. Also it is as much weapon as defense since I tend to shield rush and shield bash. When you get a 215 lbs guy in 90lbs of armor heading at you full steam behind a 12-15 shield, someone is going to go flying and it wont likely be me. I overbuilt them on purpose for the way I planned to use them.
For a more normal heater shield I would use 2 pieces of 1/4" plywood for a shield with of 1/2" and it would be much lighter.
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jhart06
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Post by jhart06 on Jan 31, 2012 6:59:53 GMT
See, to you, I say 'Toro!' and spin aside.
That tactic works, but unless you're exceedingly lucky, or your opponent is under class, you're going to need to eff your opponent up in one go.
I've got the project together for my own shield, I just need it to warm up. Sean and Vincent know about it.. Bloody thing is going to be a chore to keep to a weight able to be maneuverable.
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Post by Dalaran1991 on Jan 31, 2012 12:16:53 GMT
Thanks for all the reply. Well I'm a college student so no access to a workshop. Yet. Though I will put it into my house design in the future to have an armoury/blacksmith with it. Anyway I wont be able to make anything for the moment. And since most of you said making it urself cost around $50, they offer this at KultofAthena: www.kultofathena.com/product.asp ... den+Shield Looks good to me historically and goes well with the crusader look. I think it would be pretty fragile though. However I'm using this mostly for solo training or blunt light contact with a friend, so I hope it will hold up. Jhart06: with light contact do you think said wooden shield would hold up for at least 2 seasons with weekly training? Eheru: you are definitely right. The shield are made disposable for a reason I think. Logistical, mostly, because wood deteriorate quickly. Also I read somewhere that warriors don't reinforce the rim so that the enemy weapons would bite into the shield and get stuck there. Mostly I use the shield to practice sword and shield technique, so I looked it up and saw this guy with a huge ass metal heater shield? ?? No idea where he get it though, though I bet it's as tough as hell. mysite.verizon.net/tsafa1/pell/index.htm14thforsaken: you make the human battering ram then :lol:
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Post by Elheru Aran on Jan 31, 2012 13:16:41 GMT
That's Bill Tsafa, who used to be a poster here; he's not around these days, though. That shield is probably 16ga steel or 14-12ga aluminum.
The shield you post is a Deepeeka product; while they're labeled as 'battle ready', it's more of a 'letter of the law rather than the spirit' designation. They're really far more display/walking around products than they are for actual use. The price is an indication-- the company's based in India, it costs money to ship a shield to Kult of Athena in Illinois, and it still comes in at $70? Either they're making zero profit, or more realistically, it's going to turn out to be a piece of formed pasteboard covered in canvas with a few cheap leather straps riveted on.
Trust me, it's much more worth your time and money to make your own. The Gaffer's shield press is fairly cheap to make; most expensive individual parts will be getting the plywood and the strap-down clamps. Bonus to this is that once it's made, you can make new shields as needed as long as the press holds up for about a quarter or less than you'd pay for a shield from Kult of Athena or anywhere online!
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jhart06
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Post by jhart06 on Jan 31, 2012 16:31:03 GMT
I'm almost certain the depeeka would fail epically. For the shield press and making your own, you could probably have 90% of it, if not more, cut to form by lowes, and then you'd just need a cheap drill/woodglue and what not. I used a tiny balcony on an apartment for mine. Also, dont forget... There is *nothing* saying your shield need to be curved. Even for a heater shield. And lowe's can cut 3/4" oak plywood (or 1/2") to shape for you, and generally they only charge a quarter.
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Post by johnapsega on Feb 7, 2012 1:47:59 GMT
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Post by etiennehamel on Feb 7, 2012 2:07:32 GMT
ah i know this site!!! i wanted to make a shield like this too some years ago but never had the chance to do it. i look forward in seeing your progress.
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Post by fencerdenoctum on Feb 10, 2012 5:49:48 GMT
When I was in the SCA most of my fighting group used plywood round shields with steel center bosses. I used a round shield as well, but it was made from an old road sign. Cut it round with a jig saw (mine ended up more egg shaped, but my friend rushed the cut but I never cared). I picked up a center boss from Therion Arms and bolted it down, used a dowel rod for a handle wrapped with tennis grip. Edged it with some plastic hose so it wouldn't go through a helm face grill, and I was off and fighting (and dying. A LOT.) You could always tell at Lowe's when war season was coming, because there wasn't any plywood hardly (New war, new shield right?)
As for curvature, I've seen patterns for shield presses around, but I've never used one myself. If you don't have tools, invest in good ones, or have a friend that has tools help you.
Best of luck!
Nothing to me was more fun for me when someone made the mistake of asking what I was making with the materials I was buying. I made a horrible looking (but I was still proud of it!) suit of Japanese armor from those blue plastic barrels and laced it with shoe laces. I was carded for the paint I used to paint the armor, but NOT for the blowtorch I used to shape the plastic. Items were purchased at the same time.
Can't wait to see what you come up with! Keep us posted and post pics!
Fencerdenoctum, Tea Sipping Swordsman
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Post by johnapsega on Feb 10, 2012 16:31:29 GMT
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Paul
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Post by Paul on Feb 11, 2012 21:40:30 GMT
Ive actuall been looking at an Arms & Armos Shield armor.com/armor043.htmlIve exchanges a few emails with them and am just waiting on some photo's of the back of the shield. Id think this one would be classed as a battle ready shield?
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jhart06
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Post by jhart06 on Feb 11, 2012 21:51:44 GMT
For me, i'd want 14ga steel.. 16 is probably enough, but I just dont like dealing with anything 16ga or less for items I intend to use.
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Post by Elheru Aran on Feb 11, 2012 22:54:35 GMT
Paul-- If you intend to just hang that up after putting an appropriate colour scheme and heraldry on it, then it'll do just fine. Otherwise I side somewhat with Jeremy; 16 seems a tad light.
A notion is that you could possibly curve a piece of 1/8" plywood and glue or bolt it to the back of the metal. Plywood that thin is generally very light, and would only add a few ounces. This would help reinforce the shield considerably if you intend to actually use it in WMA or SCA.
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jhart06
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Post by jhart06 on Feb 11, 2012 23:21:05 GMT
Also, though i'm no historian, I dont recall many, if any, solely metal shields of that shape.
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Taran
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Post by Taran on Apr 2, 2012 6:48:41 GMT
Metal heaters, whether steel or aluminum, are going to run 10-15 Lbs, depending on how big and what kind of edge/edging you have. My coffin shield is taller than the vast majority of heaters, but narrower, so it provides the same surface area and about the same weight at 12Lbs. Tsafa uses a standard heater in .09 inch thickness 7075 T-6 Aircraft Aluminum, which, when he was going without a linen cover on which to paint his coat of arms, weighed in at 10 Lbs. He and I have dueled a time or two. I went with Windrose Armouries for my 24x42inch coffin made from the same material as Tsafa's shield. Aluminum beats steel for modern shields due to weight. Both materials have about the same lifespans with heavy use requiring replacement every 3 years or sometimes sooner, and they both cost about the same, and they both look about the same. And Arms and Armour is not such a great place to get a shield. Massively overpriced. Find an SCA armourer. Windrose Armoury is known to be one of the more expensive SCA armouries, but even they trounce Arms and Armour's price by about a hundred dollars even for their most expensive (and largest) shield). www.windrosearmoury.com/zc/index ... Path=30_27
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2012 9:24:54 GMT
The Spartan Hoplite shield was according to historians somewhere in the range of 17 to 33 pounds, but this was designed to be used in formation in massed infantry warfare, not for the solo fighting that style western medieval shields were used for. They were held with an 'Argive grip', with the forearm behind the shield centre and the hand near the edge to support the weight. The lip also curved around inwards so the edge could be rested in the shoulder.
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