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Post by Unit731 on Dec 14, 2011 13:15:40 GMT
I have been thinking of new designs (new to me at least) for modern stab proof/resistant armor. One of them includes an idea based on modern Ballistic Vests. What if a person were to replace the ceramic plates with plates made of that thick plastic used on cutting boards? How possible is it to puncture that material? What about other composites, such as Fiberglass or Carbon Fiber? If a person were to layer the underside with a dense foam, would it help with impact weapons as well? Could such a design stop 9mm bullets if the plates were covered with a layer of steel?
Feel free to chime in some ideas if you have any. I wouldn't mind building this type of armor, but I would like to do a little research before I buy anything.
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Dec 14, 2011 13:44:37 GMT
Somebody beat you to it, Unit: And you can buy it here. The main disadvantage to most forms of armor is that you will feel every bit of that impact; just ask Jeremy, our resident stage combat expert. But, of course, I'd rather break a rib or two than die, so I'd say it's a fair trade off.
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Post by 14thforsaken on Dec 15, 2011 6:33:22 GMT
Just keep in mind it only protects your chest. Someone that knows what they are doing would still be able to slice up your extremities and bleed you out. The type of knife fighting I was taught was based on that principle, slice open major veins and let them bleed out.
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Dec 15, 2011 6:44:48 GMT
Very true. But that's working under the assumption that everyone who would want to attack you and stick a knife in your guts is a "master knife fighter". Generally speaking, most thugs who'll come at you with a knife will be playing by prison rules: get in, stab him in the stomach as many times as possible, and get out as fast as you can. They don't want to be the one attached to the stabbing anymore than you want to be stabbed.
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Post by Unit731 on Jan 8, 2012 19:13:23 GMT
Would the stuff double as impact resistant armor if it was foam padded?
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Post by Elheru Aran on Jan 8, 2012 19:54:58 GMT
Depends on how good the foam is and how brittle your material is. If it'll take a stab but will shatter under a baseball bat...
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Post by Unit731 on Jan 8, 2012 20:32:43 GMT
What is a good sort of material for this? And what if I added a layer of steel/aluminum over the top?
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Sean (Shadowhowler)
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on Jan 8, 2012 21:23:20 GMT
Same here. Dispirited my sword collection, outside of fencing knife fighting and escrima are the only weapon styles I have any training with. With knife fighting the torso is only one of many targets... unlike with guns where most people are taught to shoot center mass and untrained people still instinctively aim for the larger body section.
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Post by Unit731 on Jan 8, 2012 21:33:10 GMT
I am not looking to be able to survive an iron maiden here. If it can help protect my organs and make less "stab-able " surface area, it should make it harder for an opponent to stab me. The rest of the protection would be from my own ability to move out of the way and deflect attacks. I also plan on making greaves/vambraces and using a very thick material (Thick, layered nylon/leather maybe) to hold it all together. Besides, I imagine my main (fictional) enemies would be thugs anyway. People with minimal training in combat, and even less training with knives. I doubt some thugster would know anything about anatomy and arteries. :lol:
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jhart06
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Post by jhart06 on Jan 8, 2012 21:40:58 GMT
The armor will still transfer force trauma to the torso if a sufficently hard blow is placed.
When you go adding steel plate, foam, and the plastic you are drastically undercutting modern armors purpose: conceal and manuever with protection.
Honestly, the reason you don't see cops wearing this is simple, there isn't really a good modern stab proof armor.
Some forms of ballistic armor provide good pierce/stab resistance, but there just isn't a good, cost effective alternative for most of us.
Though, if some military projects work out, we could see that change... Then I shudder to think of the next wave of guns made to defeat some of them!
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Post by Unit731 on Jan 8, 2012 21:58:07 GMT
If it is to be concealed, it will be under a heavy jacket, or a thin leather jacket. The maneuverability of the armor isn't too big of a deal. If I can run and use my weapons easily enough, it should suffice. I know their are flexible, modern examples out there, ready to be purchased and all, but I lack money and I don't trust the flexible variants. I would prefer a hard surface so that if they do land a blow, I may have a chance to counter their attack, as opposed to being stabbed and dead immediately. I am aware this armor may be a bit heavy, or if light enough, may not completely stop a stab, but if it can give me an upper hand, it will do. If anyone has any good ideas of what type of plastic is best, or a better way of doing this, feel free to chime in. Don't be shy.
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Sébastien
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Post by Sébastien on Jan 8, 2012 23:34:18 GMT
AFAIK*, modern-day armor (bullet-proof vest) doesn't have to deal with stabbing, blade strikes except in some exceptionnal cases. These are made to deal with bullets and shrapnels, which will be more than 95% of the things that will try to pierce through them. CQC does happen but it is a rather exceptionnal event AFAIK*.
Also, AFAIK*, modern-day ground combat typically centers on movement and cover, both of which would be hampered by an overly bulky and/or heavy armor.
As such, a modern armor that would be very resistant to stabbing strikes would have very little practical use, if it hampers other more important qualities usually found in today's bullet-proof vests.
Just sayin' my usual dead serious reply ...
IMHO* the best stab-proof armor would be a plate armor, covering chainmail, but this armor would be way too heavy and bulky for modern day warfare. Plus, it wouldn't take bullets very well, compared to the usual kevlar vest.
*My practical knowledge of warfare is actually limited so feel free to take my words with a pinch of salt.
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Post by Unit731 on Jan 8, 2012 23:40:51 GMT
Just to mention, it doesn't need to be bullet proof. I just like the design of ballistic vests because it covers the vital organs and seems like it would be easy to maneuver in. It seems it would be even easier to wear if it were made of plastic instead of ceramic, which might not resist a head on ice pick, but my deflect a knife (especially if I turned slightly to the side, allowing the blade to slide down the plastic, similar to how a cutting boards resists knife cuts when at the right angle). I am not planning on taking this into the army or something, I just want some (fictional but functional) protection from them aggressive thugsters. :lol: If they have a gun, I consider the battle over and it wouldn't matter what I did, but usually they have melee type weapons.
*Edit*
I plan on building this armor, and will conduct some crude tests upon it's completion. :mrgreen:
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Sébastien
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Post by Sébastien on Jan 8, 2012 23:51:46 GMT
For purely anti-stabbing knife strikes defense, I'd go for a chain mail shirt, maybe with a plate of something underneath. That something could be a resilient type of steel or something else.
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on Jan 9, 2012 0:01:09 GMT
Ringmesh.
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Post by Unit731 on Jan 9, 2012 0:34:03 GMT
Those are some really good ideas. A layer of ringmesh. I might add one in between fabrics with steel backings in crucial areas. What are some things I should know about chain mail before I buy/make some? Would it be an ideal protection if it is between nylon layers?
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Post by Elheru Aran on Jan 9, 2012 15:16:27 GMT
Chain mail should really be steel, always, if you want any kind of protection. There's some debate about whether hardened or annealed rings are best; the idea is that perhaps annealed rings would deform rather than breaking under a blow, as hardened rings may, but on the other hand hardened rings would take slices better (theoretically; as far as I know nobody's actually tested it, given the cost). And of course it should always be either welded or riveted. Ringmesh would probably actually be fairly decent for your purposes; it's welded stainless steel IIRC. Galvanized steel is okay but some people have a reaction to the zinc, and you have to keep your eye on carbon steel in case it rusts. Anyway, Ringmesh mail is also good because it can come in a quite small size, much more convenient to conceal under clothing or a layer or ballistic nylon. Whatever mail you choose though, it's really a great idea to have some sort of padding underneath it, and I can see a double layer of ballistic nylon sandwiching chain-mail being fairly inflexible; perhaps only the outer layer need be nylon. We're not really looking at something that you can just wear over your clothes here, honestly... this is sorta starting to turn into one of those grizzly-bear suits Seriously though, what you're looking at is some body protection, with perhaps a chain-mail shirt under a long shirt of heavy nylon with vambraces on your arms?
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Post by Unit731 on Jan 10, 2012 6:26:39 GMT
What about scail mail?
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jhart06
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Post by jhart06 on Jan 10, 2012 6:51:37 GMT
Twist and flex the blade under a scale (not too hard close up with a knife/dagger) and bobs your uncle, or your aunt if the guy wearing armor is named Bob
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Post by Elheru Aran on Jan 10, 2012 13:32:05 GMT
Yeah... the reason scale was never used all that much historically is because it protects best in only one direction-- vertically downward. If you thrust upward or diagonally upwards, you can get your tip in under it quite easily. There's a reason lamellar armour has historically been arranged with the overlaps pointing upward-- it's much harder to actually stab downward with a sword against a standing opponent, and if you're riding, spear or sword thrusts upward will deflect off the armour rather than going under the overlaps.
Theoretically, of course, you *could* make scale with the scales overlapping upward... but then to keep them from simply opening up due to gravity, you'd have to fix the bottoms... and then you lose flexibility because you've basically turned it into a rough lamellar, and not even as good as standard lamellar.
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