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Post by Larry Jordan on Nov 25, 2011 3:07:00 GMT
Hanwei Shaolin Jian
My first Chinese sword, a Jian. I was really taken with the KOA images for this sword--it's gorgeous. I had difficulty deciding on the brass or steel hardware. I think either would have been perfectly adequate. The brass is a wee bit gaudy and a tad more expensive ($165 vs. $155), but photographed faithfully in terms of chroma and value. The steel should be impressive as well, and not as dark as some advert images portray.
I have no previous Jian training, so this is purely experimental. I figure I can use western foil or saber technique. And, if the handle is long enough, I might be able to adapt some katana techniques.
Stats
Blade Length: 29 3/4" OAL: 38 1/2" Taper: .297"/7.54mm to 0.096"/2.44mm Width: 1.0625" to .625" OAL Handle Length (plus pommel): 6 1/2" Edge: Unsharpened POB: 3 5/8" Weight Sword: 1 lb 15 3/4 oz Weight Sheath: 10 7/8 oz
Some Pix
Eventually I will make an honest review out of this, but for now let me share some pix and impressions.
Full length
Handle detail (showing fit in sheath)
The wood for handle and bamboo sheath are a good enough match.
Guard Detail
Pommel Detail
Retainer
I've not tried to disassemble.
The Blade
Tip Detail
On Guard!
Grip Detail (four fingers)
Grip Detail (three fingers--verso)
Choking Up
Two Hands
Not quite a katana grip. I cannot get my hands on top of the handle. The front guard interferes with the right hand and the pommel interfers with the left. (My index finger base knuckles are at 1:30/10:30 instead of 12 noon, the ideal.)
Two Hands (verso)
Observations
The ridge running the length of the blade produces a neat swooshing sound for swings with proper edge orientation. Two hands work quite well, in spite of the shortened grip. I believe I could also use western saber/foil technique quite effectively.
The sword and sheath are very clean. And parts are well-formed and tight. However, although the sword is tight at the sheath mouth, the tip of the sword rattles against the side. Not sure how to quiet the blade. Any suggestions?
As for sharpening I was thinking of only sharping the first 1/3 leaving the forte unsharpened. What is the standard practice for jians--to sharpen the entire length or only a portion thereof?
Enjoy.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2011 3:59:30 GMT
Nice review on the Shaolin jian. Looks like a pretty good training jian for the price. Historically a jian usually has a flattened diamond shape geometry that is sharpened throughout the entire length. If you plan to practice with it, it would be safer with a blunt. As for the sword's rattling, I would do the same as a katana. I would add a very small amount of cotton wads (those typically seen in an aspirin bottles) and see if it stops the rattling. If not keep adding bits by bits till it stops rattling.
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Post by whitefeathers on Nov 25, 2011 5:00:01 GMT
I don't know a darn thing about these kind of swords. I like the natural wood look and overall it doesn't look gaudy like how some of these can get. Is that a hole in the handle? How does it handle compared to a katana?
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Post by Larry Jordan on Nov 25, 2011 13:36:03 GMT
Jerry, thanks for the tips for quieting the rattle. I will take your advice and leave it blunt for training purposes.
'feathers, I, too, am a newbie to this style of sword. I've seen a few youtube videos of jian technique and must admit that I am a bit puzzled. It is not western fencing. In saber we keep the edge toward the oncoming blade and block with the forte, not the side. Or we beat or envelope and reposte. In contrast in some Rodell footage, the block with the side of the blade takes the blade back (fingers away! from attacker) and then the blade is disengaged, tip swung back and under to cut the attacker's under arm, arm pit or crotch. As indicated above, I would have "beat" the blade out of alignment, lunged and impaled the attacker. But again, I do not know the "philosophy" of the jian and the associated technique.
The long blade (29+") is just under 2lbs making it comparable to a calvary saber in heft. It's heavier than a small sword, but the counter weight moves the POB back (less than 4" in front of the guard) so it is quite maneuverable, more so that my US 1860 Light Cavalry Saber.
Compared to a katana it is a lighter, more nimble instrument. It may be of comparable length(28"-30"), but when used with one hand its effective reach is extended and this allows the jian to counter attack the hands and wrists of the attacker. I found the following youtube video which uses a katana "stooge" to demonstrate. (The katana person in this video has an appointment with death, so don't be too critical.)
The video is hardly a fair comparison, but important for the katana user -- if he survives the encounter, he may have fewer fingers with which to grip the katana.
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Post by whitefeathers on Nov 25, 2011 15:15:39 GMT
Ah yes I have seen this video. I can see that with the balance so far back the tip is very quick. I bet with a highly skilled katana user that duel would have been very interesting. And If you like this style of sword you will have to get a sharp version for cutting
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Post by Larry Jordan on Nov 25, 2011 21:06:45 GMT
Reach Compared I've tried to position the guards to demonstrate the small, but possibly significant, reach differences among these three weapons.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2011 23:43:47 GMT
I have had thoughts of ordering this sword. I thought "battle ready" ment sharp. Is this sword not sharp? thank you, Bill
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Post by Larry Jordan on Nov 26, 2011 0:57:25 GMT
Bill,
I thought the same thing so I contacted KOA. This was the reply:
I did not choose to have the jian sharpened.
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Nov 26, 2011 1:21:37 GMT
Damn you, Larry! I just decided I didn't want one of these! Where's my smite button?
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Post by Taiwandeutscher on Nov 29, 2011 6:32:56 GMT
I always thought that Chinese swords had a clamshell diameter, diamond shapes seem a modern repro feature, no? And I also belief that the tip and the 1st third are very sharp, the second third medium and the last third dull?
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Post by Turok on Nov 29, 2011 8:39:37 GMT
Yeah, I agree with you Taiwandeutscher. Its a great looking sword and really shiny! Though I think according to the desciption at KOA, this is a "spring-steel" wushu sword. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure it works great for forms and for performances. Its just that I would be very cautious about cutting anything with it though (sharpened or not).
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Post by Larry Jordan on Nov 29, 2011 15:41:28 GMT
KOA ad copy on the blade: It doesn't say exactly which "high-carbon steel": ( Types of Carbon Steel) Spring Temper I do not know enough about the weapon and its intended technique to know what type of cutting is suitable. I will NOT be doing a destructive test to discover its limits, as some are motivated to do. I was considering two chinese swords at my first: (1) The Shaolin Jian and (2) the Rodell Chinese Cutting Jian. Since the Shaolin Jian was being discontinued, that prompted me to choose it. It's a pretty, if not an entirely practical, thing. I can afford two swords. Those of you on a tigher budget might want to choose the Rodell Jian instead.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2011 15:53:58 GMT
I actually compared the two models at KoA. The Shaolin was a bit faster, but the Rodell had that same type of "feel," while still feeling like an actual weapon. I might consider picking up a Rodell eventually (or else maybe the Kris Cutlery Jian III). Personally, I wouldn't trust the hilt construction of the Shaolin enough to hit anything with it.
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Post by Larry Jordan on Nov 29, 2011 20:09:22 GMT
I enjoyed reading about your trip. And your positive comments about the jian helped forge my decision.
Would you please elaborate on your concerns about the "hilt construction"? What exactly raises concerns?
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Post by Larry Jordan on Nov 30, 2011 23:56:12 GMT
Is there any historical accuracy to this blade design? (with ridge and distal taper?) Shaolin Jian Tapers: OAL: .297"/7.54mm (at guard) to 0.096"/2.44mm (at transition) Cutting edge (lower 1/3): 4.67mm/.184" to 2.44mm/.096" Blade Widths: OAL: 1.0625" (at guard) to .625" (at transition) Cutting edge (lower 1/3): .777" to .625" (Photobucket did not allow me to draw lines with arrows to mark the point of transition. So, I used a paint brush "point" to dab the spot.) The ridge adds rigidity/support. The blade seems ideally suited for thrusting and snap cutting. Why wouldn't this blade also be an effective cutter? Does anyone have any first hand evidence to the contrary? I see that Hanwei also makes an Adam Hsu line which uses a similar blade design, both in a one-hand model and a TWO-HANDED model: With a 34+" blade one has the same effective reach as the ATrim Zombie Slayer. And, if all one is going to do is thust into an eye socket and scramble zombie brains, this would be adequate.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2011 16:34:17 GMT
Absolutely! Someone posted pictures some time back of the tang on one of Hanwei's jian (probably an Adam Hsu), and it was VERY minimal. Ah, and here it is! www.sword-buyers-guide.com/Hanwe ... Sword.html Plus there's the fact that Hanwei has stated in the past that their jian (except for the Rodell) are not intended for cutting. If you were planning on cutting with the Shaolin, it would be a good idea to check the construction yourself ahead of time (assuming it's one you can disassemble).
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Post by Larry Jordan on Dec 1, 2011 17:29:19 GMT
I'm working up some courage to try to disassemble the jian. The thought of marring the brass pommel has me concerned. It occurred to me that the following might simply be a stylish hole closure which screws off, revealing within more robust linkage/hardware. What else? Brass is not hard enough to achieve a secure hold. There's got to be steel inside.
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Post by Anders on Dec 1, 2011 18:14:32 GMT
After discussing jians with my kung-fu practicing friend, my impression is that later period jian were more thrusters and not built for heavy cutting - light self-defense weapons, basically. That's the sort of jian he's trained in, as a result most of the jians on the market are actually balanced all wrong for him.
IOW, there are more then one type of jian. I can't speak for the historicalness of this particular blade, since Chinese swords isn't quite my area, but I wouldn't write it of as a mere performance sword - rather, perhaps it's just not made for cutting, the same way say a smallsword isn't?
As far as I understand, a wushu jian tends to be whippy/floppy, whereas this one seems to have a ridge for rigidness - a typical feature of a dedicated thrusting sword.
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Post by Larry Jordan on Dec 1, 2011 18:43:19 GMT
I was also thinking smallsword++, with an emphasis on thrusting, but also able to support low energy cuts which will be disabling, even if they don't cleave hand or leg.
But then I saw the two-handed jian. Two-hands give considerably more leverage for the cut. Can such a long, thin blade (even with the ridge) withstand such cutting? But now that I have had some time to think about it, it could be that two-hands simply give the leverage needed to effectively maneuver the longer blade for thrusts and light cuts.
Anders, does you friend find the Adam Hsu jians properly balanced? What jian does he find properly balanced for the techniques he's learning?
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Dec 1, 2011 19:18:40 GMT
I don't know much, since my area of interest has shifted quite a bit, but the jian is a cut-n-thrust sword with emphasis on slashes, chops, and various thrusts. It won't have the same deep slashing capability as say, a dao or katana, but is still capable of respectable cuts and a properly made one should be able to do a little more than that; they could likely take a head off, but that's just conjecture.
For those of you familiar with the Oakeshott typology, here's a comparison that will make a lot more sense: the jian is essentially a Type XVIII with parallel edges, as far as blade geometry and purpose go. In fact, I would daresay that the jian is geared just as much towards cutting as thrusting, unlike many cut-n-thrust swords; at least, depending on the style you're taught (for instance, Northern Shaolin places a slight emphasis on the stab when compared to Hung Gar, which has about an equal emphasis from what I can see from the forms).
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