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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2007 18:36:35 GMT
i was under the same impression as chopchop, thinking that wielding a Jo does not count as swordmanship. however i could be wrong. in fact we could all be wrong, history has a way of changing....
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Post by rammstein on Jan 4, 2007 18:42:17 GMT
well whose to say it isn't swordsmanship? In my opinion, if you can take any motion, subsitute a sword in the hand, and it can kill something, it is a sword art. I think it is fairly absurd to say something is an sword art only under strict regimen. The same movements as an axe, when done with a sword, will kill someone just as easily as a move someone masters after 30 years of training.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2007 10:15:16 GMT
Personally( It may just be me!), I would have a little trouble using an axe instead of an iaito for Iai training. As a very learned Japanese friend of mine said once " Any idiot can swing an axe".
I feel a sword art would always as the basis of its training regime require a balanced sword. However while a Jo measures in at 127cm, it is as you say used in the same way as a katana or tachi, but is an art of its own as it can be utilized quicker than a sword.
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Post by rammstein on Jan 5, 2007 14:11:35 GMT
I think you may have reversed what I meant. I didn't mean use an axe for Iai training....
I meant that, if you take a sword and swing it, just like you would a battle axe, it has just as much a capacity to kill as someone who has been studying swordsmanshp for 30 years. Saying that it isn;t swordsmanship just because the guy used a stick instead of a sword is a bit...off if you ask me.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2007 15:11:18 GMT
I think you may have reversed what I meant. I didn't mean use an axe for Iai training.... I meant that, if you take a sword and swing it, just like you would a battle axe, it has just as much a capacity to kill as someone who has been studying swordsmanshp for 30 years. Saying that it isn;t swordsmanship just because the guy used a stick instead of a sword is a bit...off if you ask me. Using an axe as an Iaito would suck... I think "swordsmanship" encompasses a lot more than merely swinging a weapon. I think part of it is the understanding of what the capabilities of your chosen sword art and weapon are (what it can, and cannot do), as well as knowing how to maximize it's abilities and minimize it's downfalls. Other parts might include when to use particular strikes, how to defend, and how to maintain. Taking an axe swing with a katana can have terrible results, and not just for the target. A number of stick arts originated from sword arts, and even fewer have developed into an art all their own. Is it swordsmanship? Maybe. Depends. Escrima, for example, is a sword art, although many people don't recognize it as such because of Hollywood movies and the fact that you rarely see people practice escrima with live blades. The sticks are used as a substitute, otherwise there wouldn't be many students due to the lack of limbs. The Jo, on the other hand, is believed by many to have originated as a weapon all on it's own. Made by Muso Gonnosuke specifically to defeat Japanese sword styles. Although used originally to combat swords, I wouldn't call it a sword art.
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Post by rammstein on Jan 5, 2007 16:04:08 GMT
regardless, if you beat someone with a stick instead of a sword, then the person you beat goes around saying he's never lost a duel because the guy that beat him used a stick instead of a sword....thats called fudging the facts. if instead of a stick, he had actually used a bladed instrument and it would have killed him...he was beaten by a swordsman.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2007 16:57:21 GMT
I must admit that I too... have never been defeated by a swordsman in a sword duel. ;D
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Post by rammstein on Jan 5, 2007 17:14:54 GMT
well....take this into acount....
According to musashi's believe that if you don't duel with swords to the death then you can never be defeated, then I will bet you a lot that every single person in the world is an undefeated swordsman. Because if they have been defeated, they'd be dead.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2007 17:34:13 GMT
Oh, no argument from me. There's a saying I used to hear a long time ago. Don't slam me for not getting it right word for word, but it went along the lines of "history is written by the victors" or something like that. If you were living in Musashi's time with him boasting in front of you, would you argue with him? Personally, I'd nod, keep my mouth shut, and move along. ;D Oh, and I've also never, in my entire life, missed a target with firearms. I'm gonna have to make a list of my "achievements" sometime. ;D
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2007 17:42:23 GMT
oomph, good point. i think i can see both ways, and like i said, this is pretty much a matter of perspective. swordsman snobby-poos would have you believe that you are not a swordsman unless you use 'your' sword and fight to the death, however dueling realists would have you believe that any fight with stick/pipe/weed/sword/foil or whatever is a true sword duel. anyways, the point is moo. we can at least agree that musashi was a great swordsman.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2007 0:49:24 GMT
Musashi fought quite a lot with bokken and such. Especially his later duels, where he almost never used a live blade. Like I mentioned earlier, he beat kojiro with an oar. He still counted those as duels.
He also talks in the book of 5 rings that one shouldn't have a specialized weapon, but should train and be proficient in all weapons. Surely by his own rules then Gonnosuke would have beaten him in a duel, yet he makes no mention of it. Maybe he was just a proud old man and didn't want to tarnish his otherwise impeccable record.
And also for the record, Gonnosuke was a swordsman of rising status when he challenged Musashi. I believe that he used a live sword in his first duel when he lost, then came up with a Jo specifically to defeat japanese sword arts. That's truly an accomplishment. Taking a defeat and learning from it, and becoming better for it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2007 3:38:13 GMT
As an Iaidoka I have some experience. Kendo is very different from most of the other Japanese sword arts. Kendo is extremely popular in Japan and the competition is fierce. Kendo does not teach you how to use the sword in a fight. Your main points for scoring is the sides of the body and the hands of your opponent. I'm not positive you score points by wacking them upside the head. Basically in Kendo you must stomp your feet as you strike, do a Kai shout. If your strike contacts the correct areas then you score a point. Evidently this is quite difficult with a good opponent.
Iaido is different in that it teaches forms, also know as katas or wazas in iaido terms. The forms you learn are used to cut several different locations on the body not restricted like Kendo. There are 11 basic seisa wazas for beginners. The slightly more advanced practioners then have access to another 12 standing wazas called battahos. Some of the wazas are similar to each other as they build upon what you have learned previously and then added in more moves. I know there are books out there teaching people how to do the moves. Books can only teach you so far. You really need an instructor to make sure you're doing the moves correctly. I'm with the Clear Lake Iaido association and our lineage goes back to Japan. The Japanese Sensei actually visits us in Texas at least once a year to check on the progress of our school.
Both have their appeals and both are a great way for students to learn about japanese sword arts.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2007 23:11:37 GMT
You don't wack them upside the head, rather right on the front of the forehead, it's called 'Shomen-uchi' (front-face strike). The kiai along with such a strike is 'men!', which is the abbreviated form.
Not only must you hit the correct areas, but you must hit the proper area with the proper part of the shinai(the last 6 inches or so), and not just any kiai, but the proper kiai must be yelled. There are 3 targets for competition up to ikkyu, Men, Kote(wrist), and Do(side). After Shodan, participants are allowed to thrust at the throat/collarbone, with the kiai 'Tsuki'.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2007 4:22:52 GMT
Thanks for the correction.
I don't know much about kendo.
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Post by tajima on May 4, 2007 9:11:54 GMT
Does anyone know much about Kobudo? I know it was Okinawan and uses the War Fan, Katana/Bokken, Rokushakubo, Nunchaku, Manji Sai, Eku, Spear/Shield but I do not know much history of the art. I practice it but still wish to find out more...
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2007 12:29:59 GMT
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Post by tajima on May 4, 2007 21:40:01 GMT
Thanks!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2007 17:33:56 GMT
Okay, here we go: <snip summary of kendo, kenjutsu, iaido/iaijutsu, battojutsu, shinkendo, aikiken> Adam, I'm presently studying shinkendo through an official arm of the ISF in Chandler, Arizona. Shinkendo is very unlike kendo (from what I can tell an abstract form of the art reduced to a sport, pretty much what has happened to western fencing: foil, epee, and saber.) Of the systems you mention, shinkendo appears to be an amalgam of iaido/iaijutsu, battojutsu and aikiken. Sensei Obata has published a book "Shinkendo: Japanese Swordsmanship" (available at amazon) which captures, as best as a book can, the essential elements of shinkendo. Sensei Obata is photographed in stages executing the basic body-, sword- and footwork (suburi), drawing methods (bottoho), solo forms (tarrengata), sparing (tachiuchi) and a section on tameshigiri. Each photo is numbered and captioned and sequences are annotated with a count to provide a cadence to assist in leading others through these exercises--even the neophyte will get this opportunity. For example, the first drawing and cutting form (goho bottoho kihon ichi: ipponme) has sixteen annotated photos, stepping you through the 5 counts--the draw, high-left to low-right diagonal cut, mid-level ready position, high-level blood flick, resheath. It's not really a self-tutorial, but rather a study aid/reference. Hope this is helpful.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2007 22:05:41 GMT
Thanks for the clarification. All I know of shinkendo is that my cousin and her husband both take it and what little they've told me about it. They apparently match up with shinai, but do forms(katas) and suburi with bokken.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2007 13:20:31 GMT
Just to throw in my 2 cents here I am also a practicing Iaidoka, and something that should be clarified is that depending which ryu you learn under and which art your school focuses on, the lines between the many sword arts can be blurred more or less. Example: In our dojo, we learn Seitei Gata for our grading (IKF standards grading for iaido) however we focus heavily on Koryu as well, we teach traditional Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu (MJER), as well as Niten Ichi Ryu (NIR). If you do enough research you will learn that in fact Iaido/Kenjutsu are in fact the same art (just different sets of techniques taught within a Ryu). In japanese the words can be compared to using terms in english such as "Punching techniques" and "kicking techniques" to talk about kickboxing (in this case your specific style of kickboxing would be the Ryu, and it would teach a variety of Kicking techniques and Punching Techniques). In the Japanese Sword Arts, The Ryu itself is the "art" or "style" and the various techniques within the art are seperated into Kenjutsu technique (proper techniques of cutting, blocking, parrying and so on) Kenjutsu Kata (stereotypically Kumitachi, or paired kata) and Iai (there is almost 0 actual distinction between Iaido and Iaijutsu other than symantics, Battojutsu is also mixed in as well. Historically these terms were quite often used interchangably, the same as kendo/kenjutsu back before kendo became so "sportified"). Also most Koryu teach a mix of many other weapon arts as well as unarmed combat. So for example if you are a student of MJER, the school teaches proper sword technique the exact same as a "kenjutsu" school would, it also teaches kumitachi (called Tachi-Uchi No Kurai in MJER). As well as Tameshigiri, and other techniques. Our dojo also teach Jodo as well (which are also a part of MJER) and Kendo is taught at our dojo as well. If one looks into the older koryu (MJER and Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu which are the oldest existent koryu that I am aware of) you will find that their curriculum covers all of the above mentioned "arts" as standard practice. Each school however has it's focus shifted depending on it's particular style. So in the case of MJER, there is a larger focus on Iai, whereas in TSKSR there is a larger focus on paired work with various weapon combinations. Basically in modern times, either Iaido or Kenjutsu will give you the more realistic set of skills to work with a real sword. The only part left out from iaido which makes it very good to practice both, is live full-speed full-power sparring (which is why kendo is very nice to mix up with iaido so that you get both aspects). Someone who only studies kendo will get very good at kendo, but not neccisarily very good with a sword (since the rules are very restrictive, and a shinai is VERY different from a real sword in geometry, weight, balance, speed and technique used). But one who only studies Iaido will learn many techniques with a real sword, and will be very proficient with it, however will lack the experience and skill in actual sparring or combat to be able to adequately apply those skills... They are 2 aspects of one art in the end. This distinction and division of the arts began more recently, due to the "life" factor... In ancient japan, people could dedicate their entire life day and night to the persuit of the way of the sword (much as Musashi did) however in modern times, this is not reasonable, as people must pay bills, and eat and so on. So schools began teaching only a subset of the curriculum to their students so that they can focus on and learn those skills well, without working on everything and getting it all "halfass". Another couple tidbits of information on samurai and japanese history: Musashi was a prominant samurai, and is now known as "Kensei" (translates to Sword Saint), because he was so renowned for his life in the way of the sword. His founding of the Niten Ichi Ryu school stands to attest to his skill. Most swordsman of his time were only allowed to found their own school if they were officially endorsed by a diamo (major lord of japan) or the emperial family (or the shogun, depending on the time period). And while musashi was well liked by many Diamo, and respected as a swordsman as well as a poet and artist, he still chose to live a life of mostly solitude as a wandering ronin (even though he was offered sponsorship by many diamo throughout his life). Of note as well, in ancient japan, duels were almost always to the death. However musashi learned early in his life (after his duel with Kojiro, which was his approximately his 60th duel, but not his last by far, he had 60 duels in the first 25-30 years of his life, and had many more after that, he only mentions the 60 duels in the book of 5 rings, but there are historical records of his life from hundreds of perspectives right up until his death at around 55-60 when he wrote the book of 5 rings). It was after his duel with kojiro that he stopped fighting his duels to the death. and instead chose to seek the path of the true way of the sword, through zen and enlightenment. He fought many duels (many against the personal best of many diamo, and their personal trainers, or highly respected samurai) and each time he would lead them around preventing them from winning, all with a simple wooden sword, until they declared him the victor) Anyway, I am enthralled with Musashi and his life, and have done much reading on the topic, if anyone is interested I can reccomend some exceptional books on the topic. Another note on japanese history (relating to kendo, and the timeframe the terminology of the martial arts took a heavy swing): Before the Meiji restoration, the terms kendo/kenjutsu were used interchangably. In addition Iaido/Iaijutsu/Battojutsu/Battodo were all used interchangably as well. (you will find this alot in the japanese language, because their language is based on ideograms, not words, meaning that they use symbols that mean general concepts, and those concepts change depending on context, rather than spelled out words like english and other languages use). What happened in the meiji restoration, is that japan opened it's gates to foreign trade again, and realized the world had "moved on" without them. They were eager to catch up so they rushed to "Westernize" (western clothes and hair came into style, and they brought in experts from around the world to teach their people their ways, this is partially some of the historical info that is used (loosely) in the story of The Last Samurai). During this time, their own ways were considered "inferior" and they began doing away with many of them (for various reasons, some reasons were good, like to break down the social barriers between their strict class system). What happened is that the martial arts began being seen less as an art of war (because the time was relatively peaceful) and more as a "way of life". Then during world war 2, the practice of the martial arts was banned in japan by the occupation, and so in order to preserve their national heritage japan shifted heavily towards the terminology distinction we see today (insisting that jutsu meant technique and focused on violence, where do meant way and was more philosophical or mental in nature, and so taught more self enlightenment). This is similar to how the production of the sword came to be heavily regulated, because they justified it as an "Art form" to the american military who were confiscating their swords. They then instituted a regulatory system to license blades and smiths who showed exceptional artistic talent in the art, so that they could continue. Anyway, I am rambling on and on and on... so I will shut up now lol... If anyone else is interested in these topics just let me know I can go on for days lol...
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