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Post by Freebooter on Jun 7, 2011 14:19:33 GMT
Hello all,
Why do repro metal scabbards NEVER grip or hold securely the weapon as it is supposed to, or at least not for long. I have had probably 10 repro military sabres with metal scabbards in my life, and none of them, I mean none of them, had a scabbard that correctly gripped the sword to keep it from sliding out. That includes Cold Steel's Hvy Cavalry Sabre. It gripped good for a couple of days then the guts came out, plastic strips attached to little glue pads that were glued to the inside walls of the scabbard which evidently came loose, a cheapy try in my opinion. You would expect better from Cold Steel.
I have held and handled many original swords and bayonets with metal scabbards and they all of course had the thin metal stripsof various designs mounted in the throat, etc, to grip the blade and hold it firm. Every single repro sabre with metal scabbard I ever had came loose and from then on just will fall out of the scabbard. Some grip at first but get loose. I have tried various things and didn't work. Damn! With today's technology you would assume that they could make a repro of the scabbard and its retaining mechanism properly!!
Just had to vent!
Freebooter
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Post by Elheru Aran on Jun 7, 2011 14:42:03 GMT
Could they do it properly? Yes.
Will they? Now that's the real question there.
It all comes down to the bottom line... can they make this sword and scabbard for X, sell it for X + Y=profit, or will they do the scabbard up a little better for X+1 and make less profit?
You can guess which one they go for most of the time... honestly, it's a shame. If enough military-historic collectors put up a fuss about it, then no doubt they'd change, but right now enough people buy their products as they are that they have no financial incentive to change. Money is the only thing companies really listen to these days.
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Post by Kilted Cossack on Jun 7, 2011 15:26:36 GMT
Here's another question along the same lines. Why don't metal scabbards have German silver at the throat, like some of the originals, to prevent dulling the blade?
Leather and wood for me, my brothers, leather and wood for me.
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Post by Freebooter on Jun 7, 2011 17:19:47 GMT
My MRL repro sabre scabbards have the metal strips inside the scabbard and I have pried them out to make them grip again, or grip better, and they just go back to where they were in no time. I know why. If you take apart an old real metal scabbard, say a German cavalry sabre from WWI or II, or their bayonets, you will see that what grips the blades are thin wavy sheets of what appears to be tempered steel. What is the repros , or the one I tinkered with, seems to be cheap tin like what they make a tin roof out of. Of course there are field expedient methods you can use, but it is aggrevating for it not to dang work right!!
By the way, I have owned like three or four orginal U.S. 1860 Lt. Cavalry sabres and held many more at gunshows, friends' homes, etc.. Of all that I have held, the best or most well balanced and perfectly handling, deadly fast one is an original used by my buddy's gr gr grandfather in the Confederate Cavalry. And of all makers it has "H. Boker, Solingen, Germany on the blade! I have written Boker like four times over the last few years. Not once have they had the common courtesy or honor to dain to reply. Sad when a pround old, world wide known German company like Boker has the manners of a peasant!
Later,
Freebooter
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2011 18:06:47 GMT
A review and comparison comes up on the old board. Was the repeated question the letter to Boker themselves? sbgswordforum.proboards.com/inde ... hread=1925 The letter does contain some questions but reads more like a general observation with some historical background. If I understand the gist of what you are asking them, some of it can be found on sites others have put together. Bluing? I don't think so for that model. Someone else could have at any point even way back when. sbgswordforum.proboards.com/inde ... hread=1925 "At the beginning of the war, several of the larger sword making companies imported a great number of swords, stamped them as their own, and then passed them on to the government to fulfill contracts. Ames imported 10,000 foreign made cavalry sabers in 1861, while Boker and Mansfield & Lamb both imported 18,000 that year. These blades might possibly bear marks of the original makers on the tangs, but it is impossible to tell without disassembling the sword." "Boker Mark: Henry Boker, Solingen Herman Boker imported swords from his brother, Henry (Heinrich), in Germany. He held contracts for over 45,000 cavalry sabers, 1646 artillery sabers, and 569 NCO swords." There are a lot of dented scabbards out there that some think it was to keep the blade from rattling but there were the spring things you mention in a lot of old swords. Production costs are probably a part of them missing or ineffective .as has been mentioned. Just don't jump up and down, hold the mess upside down, or lock it down. I see the looseness disappointment from the katana guys and knightly crowd as well. The metal kinds I think you have described as a problem pretty well. |
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Post by Dave Kelly on Jun 7, 2011 18:49:07 GMT
Why do repro metal scabbards NEVER grip or hold securely the weapon as it is supposed to, or at least not for long. First off you had best lower your expectations considering that most replica 19th Century swords are probably produced at less than below original costs by half.
There is a difference of opinion as to just how fast a sword is supposed to be sheathed anyway. Too tight can wedge and damge the blade or in the case of a wooden sheath, the sheath itself.
The common soldier perception that the lock on a scabbarb caused the blade to dull resulted in many cavalrymen prying the htroats off their scabbards and throwiing them away.
As to railling about Boker, please keep in mind that the entire Ruhr Industrial complex was blown to kingdom come in the final stages of WWII. Most companies lost their archives. ( WKC even has a note on their web site asking folks to please leave them alone because they don't have the info. )
Gonna have to keep your expectations in perspective. Or, you could start your own company offering $600 swords for $.19.95. You'll make a whole bunch of friends in the six months before you have to close your doors and try and out run your creditors :lol:  |
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Post by Freebooter on Jun 7, 2011 20:33:28 GMT
Thanks y'all. You have made me look at it from theri perspective and I had forgotten how WWII litterally destroyed the Ruhr valley and much of the rest of Germany.
FB
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Post by Bogus on Jun 10, 2011 0:10:41 GMT
This. Repro sabers are almost invariably on the low end of the price-quality spectrum. I can't even think of any sabers that retail over $400, that really says it all. Cheap non-saber scabbards all suck too y'know...
This does raise kind of an interesting thought though: an enterprising metalworker could probably make a tidy profit selling good quality scabbards for the various major patterns. A lot of originals' are in bad shape too.
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Post by Freebooter on Jun 10, 2011 1:20:02 GMT
Hey Bogus,
Also, I have seen a lot of originals in collections or for sale some where with no scabbard. It would be neat to find a scabbard to house it in for its own protection fi nothing else.
FB
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Post by Onimusha on Aug 2, 2011 4:17:13 GMT
Hmm. That's not a bad idea. I wonder what someone would be willing to pay for such a thing. It seems that a lot of people today want ferraris for mustang prices. Maybe I should ask this question. Would any of you guys be interested in scabbards that fit properly, even if they're not historically accurate?
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Post by Maynar on Sept 10, 2011 4:05:36 GMT
I had this problem with an 1860 heavy cavalry saber repro I bought from Koa. I noticed near the throat of the scabbard two small adjusting screws (headless) that move in and out, ostensibly to grip the blade at the ricasso, oriented at the edge side and spine of the blade. However these headless screws were so short as to be useless. So after much digging through ye olde screw jar, I managed to find a suitable screw (headed) that threads more or less evenly in the hole, and is long enough to contact the ricasso and hold the blade securely. I replaced the spine side screw with this. Now this is not a perfect solution by any means, but is does function as a viable workaround. The drawbacks include the screw tip marring the edge of the ricasso, so it's not recommended for antiques. But an inexpensive repro saber? Well I can accept it. A little sandpaper can clean up the minor scarring when desired. This method also does not lend itself to the draw at all, being as you have to keep a small screwdriver handy to back the screw off a little to free the blade. But to make it snug for display or transport I find this works well, the minor drawbacks I can live with, and best of all- didn't cost me a dime, thus allowing me to spend two cents on this post. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2011 20:43:22 GMT
Just came across this thread and wondered aloud if there are any accepted method that is used to stop the saber from rattling in the metal scabbard. Do they add wood felt or leather shim at the throat/bottom of the scabbard?
I've heard about soldiers purposely creating dents on the metal scabbard to keep the sabers from rattling but I find such method to be highly unusual.
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Post by S. Thomas on Oct 2, 2011 13:04:51 GMT
I have used these in the scabbard of my Windlass 1860 Hv. Cav. Sabre. 3/16" I think it was; the thickness of the wood strips. Dave Kelly *nods in his direction* suggested this in a previous post on this subject. I laid out the balsa wood strips purchased from a craft supply store and laid the sabre atop the sheets and cut around the blade with an "Exacto knife" leaving a border about 1-2 mm. around the blade up near the throat to keep the shims from pulling out when drawing the sabre. Inserted two, one each side of the blade. They work perfectly for me. Keeps the blade secure in the scabbard; doesn`t rattle or fall out when turned upside down.
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Post by Deepbluedave on Oct 14, 2011 21:34:16 GMT
I was going to say head over to Raven Armoury ( www.raven-armoury.co.uk), on there "stock" page and pick up one of these they don't rattle at all in the scabbard. Then I thought I better check so I got mine out and you know what, they still have a small rattle if you shake it a bit, ah well you carn't win em all. Attachments:
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