Review & comparison of Orig 1860 Lt Cav Saber vs MRL's
Mar 1, 2011 14:36:34 GMT
Post by Freebooter on Mar 1, 2011 14:36:34 GMT
Hello all,
Most of my reviews, if not all, were on the old forum. And in light of a recent conversation between me and a member about originals vs repros, I am posting this one again, here:
--------------------------------------
REVIEW AND COMPARISON OF MODERN AMES SWORD CO. REPRO AND ORIGINAL U.S. CIVIL WAR 1860 LIGHT CAVALRY SABRE; MADE IN GERMANY BY HENRY BOKER IN SOLINGEN.
Introduction
Below is a review, or comparison, of an original Civil War 1860 Lt. Cav Sabre made by Henry Boker, Solingen, Germany, and two repros, one by Ames Sword Co and the other by MRL. The MRL and modern Ames repro are so identical that I will only include measurements of the Ames repro, for its name’ sake, to compare it with the original. I bought the repros because I love the U.S. Civil War Cav sabres and I chose MRL because everything I have ever bought from them was well made, well tempered, etc, and had decent affordable prices.
Ames told me their blades are made overseas and they assemble them at Ames. MRL’s are made by Windless Steelcraft of India. I believe they are made by the same people they are so much alike
Anyway, anyone ever heard of a German made U.S. 1860 Lt Cav sabre? An elderly lady I knew had it for years , saying her grandfather toted it while a cavalryman in the Confederate Army (for unit, see below). I went to visit her today and found that she had passed away a couple of years ago and now the granddaughter has the sword on her mantel piece. She was kind enough to get it down and let me take some measurements and compare my modern Ames repro with it. The two are identical at first glance, but not after closer scrutiny (see below):
------------------------------
NOTE: I forgot my measuring tape and had to use an old wooden yard stick of hers which had no 16th inch markings.
------------------------------
Historical overview
The U.S. Lt Cavalry sabre was a wonderful fighting sabre used in the War for Southern Independence of 1861-1865. A slightly scaled down version of the U.S. 1832 Heavy Cavalry Sabre. Both of these sabres were based directly upon the Napoleonic French Cavalry sabres and even looked somewhat like them. The Ames Co and MRL/Windless Steelcraft sabres are fairly close copies of originals and are great buys for the money.
Initial Impressions
Both the Ames Co. Sabre and the MRL Sabre were packed very well, taped up in plastic and paper and then in a box. They were packed similarly. The Ames Sabre also came with a nice cloth tube to keep it in with a widened end for the handle with ties. When I got either one of them into view I was quite impressed with the tight, solid construction, workmanship, and beauty. The handling characteristics are below.
Statistics and Components
BLADE:
Boker sabre: On right side of blade near hilt: “Henry Boker; Solingen”.
Ames repro: On right side is U.S., ADK, 1862. On left side is AmesMfgCo., Chiccopee, Mass.)
POB:
Boker: ?
Ames repro: 7 ¾” from guard.
POC:
Boker: ?
Ames repro: 11 ½” from point.
Length:
Boker Sabre: 34 1/2". Slightly rounded on back edge, which is normal for that model. The 1840 Hvy Cav Sabre was flat on the back edge. This sabre is still very sharp back to about 10” or 11” from hilt. Along this “Forte” section of edge are several old blade or hack marks from parries I suppose. The blade is very dark and appears to have been blued or is dark due to age patina.
Ames repro: Blade measures 34” and has flat back edge. Comes dull but easily sharpenable.
Width:
Boker Sabre:
W. at hilt: Just a hair under 1 1/8".
W. at middle: 1".
W. abt 6 1/2" from point: Right at 7/8".
W. 3" from point: 3/4".
Ames repro:
W. @ hilt: 1 1/8”
W. @ middle: 1”
W. @ 6 ½” fro pt: still 1”
W. 3” fro pt: 15/16”.
Blade Thickness:
Boker Sabre:
Thickness at Hilt: not quite 3/8" .
Thickness at center of blade: 1/4".
Thickness at spot where false edge begins (abt 7“ fro pt): a hair under 3/16".
Ames Repro:
Thickness at Hilt: 3/16”
Thickness at center of blade: a hair under 3/16”
Thickness at spot where false edge begins (abt 9 ½“ fro pt): 2/16“.
Fuller:
Boker Sabre: 26 ½” long, beginning at edge cutout near hilt, and 3/4" wide from top or back of blade to other edge of fuller near edge. Secondary fuller along edge.
Ames Repro: 23 ½” beginning at edge cutout near hilt. Same width and secondary fuller similar.
HANDLE:
Boker Sabre: 5 ½” long with slight downward angle, rear third of handle angles much more noticeably. Only wooden grip remains, leather and wire missing. Although there are a couple of small pieces of what appears to be black leather still stuck to it.
Guard: Identical to the modern Ames replica but slightly thicker or beefier and top of guard bent slightly towards blade. I have seen this on other originals. Was this standard?
Ames repro: 5 ¼” long, bent at a slightly downward angle as the Boker. Other than this the handle is straight and the rear third of handle does not deviate and bend even further downward as the Boker does.
Handling Characteristics
This Henry Boker 1860 Lt Cav Sabre is one of the most well balanced sabres I have ever held and handled in my life. God it must have been a fine sabre in its youth! As has been shown the blade has excellent distal taper and also from the side view where it slopes gradually to the deadly point, unlike the Ames repro and MRL repro sabres, which are identical to one another. They go from about 1 1/8” at hilt, like the Boker sabre. But from there the similarity ends. The Boker, which continues to narrow towards the point, narrows to 7/8” at middle of blade and is ¾” three inches from point. The modern Ames and MRL repro sabres are 1 to 1 1/16” wide at middle of blade and keep that width up until a nearly a couple of inches from point where the Ames repro is a hair over 7/8” wide at 3” fro point and the MRL is 1/16“ over 7/8“ at that spot.
Both the repros are fine sabres and could have equal, or near equal balance and feel, if their blades were the same dimensions as the Boker original. I wonder if it would be possible for a competent blade smith or sharpening expert to change the width of the blade the last 10-15” to make it more like the original? But even though their distal taper, balance, etc, is not quite like the originals, both the Ames and MRL sabres are still nice copies and are very fine sabres, are light and relatively quick. I am 6’ 1” and weigh 315lbs so they might feel different to someone of a different build. And their construction is very well made, their blades are very well tempered and flex very nicely and I would not hesitate to fight with one if needs be!
Test Cutting (if applicable)
I have done no test cutting with these sabres since both came dull and unsharpened. I ground the MRL one down to where the blade width is similar to the Boker original (nothing can be done about the distal taper though) and sharpened about the outer two thirds of the blade and the edge on top of the blade near the point. Now it is even more nicely balanced and a tad closer to the original.
Conclusions
I was impressed with the quality of construction and looks of both sabres, the Ames and the MRL. I was only a bit disappointed that the distal taper and thicknesses of the blades at the various points were different from the original, but not greatly so because I expected that since I have handled a lot of originals and repros.
The one thing I would like for any of the companies out there to do is get an original and copy the thickness of the blade and distal taper, etc, more accurately. It would seem this should not be too hard to do!
But all in all, I love these two sabres. I was so impressed with the quality and workmanship of the MRL sabres and their price ( around $98.00), I have ordered five so far and given them away as gifts to friends. The Ames Repro I gave to my brother in law as a wedding gift since it was his gr gr grandfather that toted the Boker sabre in the Civil War.
Pros
The handles, grips, leather coverings and wire wrapping were superb. Their weight was not bad, just their balance a tad off.
The blades, as stated, were well made, highly tempered, etc, with nice fullers and the scabbards were heavy duty and well made as well.
Cons
The blade thickness and distal taper not like the original, just one thickness most of the blade. And the sabres fit a bit too loosely in the scabbards.
Give a brief list of the aspects of the sword that you believed were the most negative, for example:
The Bottom Line
The bottom line is this: I would highly recommend either of these sabres to anyone wanting a good, well made repro which would be perfect for reenacting, practicing sabre drill and combat, etc.. They are not so wonderfully balanced as the originals but they aren’t that bad either. The sabres are very well made, quality of construction and workmanship on mine was great, and you just can not beat a good, well made sabre repro for around a hundred bucks!!
The two main grips I have is that their blade thickness and distal taper are not like the originals, which greatly effects the balance and handling characteristics and the blades slide out of the scabbards much too easily.
Most of my reviews, if not all, were on the old forum. And in light of a recent conversation between me and a member about originals vs repros, I am posting this one again, here:
--------------------------------------
REVIEW AND COMPARISON OF MODERN AMES SWORD CO. REPRO AND ORIGINAL U.S. CIVIL WAR 1860 LIGHT CAVALRY SABRE; MADE IN GERMANY BY HENRY BOKER IN SOLINGEN.
Introduction
Below is a review, or comparison, of an original Civil War 1860 Lt. Cav Sabre made by Henry Boker, Solingen, Germany, and two repros, one by Ames Sword Co and the other by MRL. The MRL and modern Ames repro are so identical that I will only include measurements of the Ames repro, for its name’ sake, to compare it with the original. I bought the repros because I love the U.S. Civil War Cav sabres and I chose MRL because everything I have ever bought from them was well made, well tempered, etc, and had decent affordable prices.
Ames told me their blades are made overseas and they assemble them at Ames. MRL’s are made by Windless Steelcraft of India. I believe they are made by the same people they are so much alike
Anyway, anyone ever heard of a German made U.S. 1860 Lt Cav sabre? An elderly lady I knew had it for years , saying her grandfather toted it while a cavalryman in the Confederate Army (for unit, see below). I went to visit her today and found that she had passed away a couple of years ago and now the granddaughter has the sword on her mantel piece. She was kind enough to get it down and let me take some measurements and compare my modern Ames repro with it. The two are identical at first glance, but not after closer scrutiny (see below):
------------------------------
NOTE: I forgot my measuring tape and had to use an old wooden yard stick of hers which had no 16th inch markings.
------------------------------
Historical overview
The U.S. Lt Cavalry sabre was a wonderful fighting sabre used in the War for Southern Independence of 1861-1865. A slightly scaled down version of the U.S. 1832 Heavy Cavalry Sabre. Both of these sabres were based directly upon the Napoleonic French Cavalry sabres and even looked somewhat like them. The Ames Co and MRL/Windless Steelcraft sabres are fairly close copies of originals and are great buys for the money.
Initial Impressions
Both the Ames Co. Sabre and the MRL Sabre were packed very well, taped up in plastic and paper and then in a box. They were packed similarly. The Ames Sabre also came with a nice cloth tube to keep it in with a widened end for the handle with ties. When I got either one of them into view I was quite impressed with the tight, solid construction, workmanship, and beauty. The handling characteristics are below.
Statistics and Components
BLADE:
Boker sabre: On right side of blade near hilt: “Henry Boker; Solingen”.
Ames repro: On right side is U.S., ADK, 1862. On left side is AmesMfgCo., Chiccopee, Mass.)
POB:
Boker: ?
Ames repro: 7 ¾” from guard.
POC:
Boker: ?
Ames repro: 11 ½” from point.
Length:
Boker Sabre: 34 1/2". Slightly rounded on back edge, which is normal for that model. The 1840 Hvy Cav Sabre was flat on the back edge. This sabre is still very sharp back to about 10” or 11” from hilt. Along this “Forte” section of edge are several old blade or hack marks from parries I suppose. The blade is very dark and appears to have been blued or is dark due to age patina.
Ames repro: Blade measures 34” and has flat back edge. Comes dull but easily sharpenable.
Width:
Boker Sabre:
W. at hilt: Just a hair under 1 1/8".
W. at middle: 1".
W. abt 6 1/2" from point: Right at 7/8".
W. 3" from point: 3/4".
Ames repro:
W. @ hilt: 1 1/8”
W. @ middle: 1”
W. @ 6 ½” fro pt: still 1”
W. 3” fro pt: 15/16”.
Blade Thickness:
Boker Sabre:
Thickness at Hilt: not quite 3/8" .
Thickness at center of blade: 1/4".
Thickness at spot where false edge begins (abt 7“ fro pt): a hair under 3/16".
Ames Repro:
Thickness at Hilt: 3/16”
Thickness at center of blade: a hair under 3/16”
Thickness at spot where false edge begins (abt 9 ½“ fro pt): 2/16“.
Fuller:
Boker Sabre: 26 ½” long, beginning at edge cutout near hilt, and 3/4" wide from top or back of blade to other edge of fuller near edge. Secondary fuller along edge.
Ames Repro: 23 ½” beginning at edge cutout near hilt. Same width and secondary fuller similar.
HANDLE:
Boker Sabre: 5 ½” long with slight downward angle, rear third of handle angles much more noticeably. Only wooden grip remains, leather and wire missing. Although there are a couple of small pieces of what appears to be black leather still stuck to it.
Guard: Identical to the modern Ames replica but slightly thicker or beefier and top of guard bent slightly towards blade. I have seen this on other originals. Was this standard?
Ames repro: 5 ¼” long, bent at a slightly downward angle as the Boker. Other than this the handle is straight and the rear third of handle does not deviate and bend even further downward as the Boker does.
Handling Characteristics
This Henry Boker 1860 Lt Cav Sabre is one of the most well balanced sabres I have ever held and handled in my life. God it must have been a fine sabre in its youth! As has been shown the blade has excellent distal taper and also from the side view where it slopes gradually to the deadly point, unlike the Ames repro and MRL repro sabres, which are identical to one another. They go from about 1 1/8” at hilt, like the Boker sabre. But from there the similarity ends. The Boker, which continues to narrow towards the point, narrows to 7/8” at middle of blade and is ¾” three inches from point. The modern Ames and MRL repro sabres are 1 to 1 1/16” wide at middle of blade and keep that width up until a nearly a couple of inches from point where the Ames repro is a hair over 7/8” wide at 3” fro point and the MRL is 1/16“ over 7/8“ at that spot.
Both the repros are fine sabres and could have equal, or near equal balance and feel, if their blades were the same dimensions as the Boker original. I wonder if it would be possible for a competent blade smith or sharpening expert to change the width of the blade the last 10-15” to make it more like the original? But even though their distal taper, balance, etc, is not quite like the originals, both the Ames and MRL sabres are still nice copies and are very fine sabres, are light and relatively quick. I am 6’ 1” and weigh 315lbs so they might feel different to someone of a different build. And their construction is very well made, their blades are very well tempered and flex very nicely and I would not hesitate to fight with one if needs be!
Test Cutting (if applicable)
I have done no test cutting with these sabres since both came dull and unsharpened. I ground the MRL one down to where the blade width is similar to the Boker original (nothing can be done about the distal taper though) and sharpened about the outer two thirds of the blade and the edge on top of the blade near the point. Now it is even more nicely balanced and a tad closer to the original.
Conclusions
I was impressed with the quality of construction and looks of both sabres, the Ames and the MRL. I was only a bit disappointed that the distal taper and thicknesses of the blades at the various points were different from the original, but not greatly so because I expected that since I have handled a lot of originals and repros.
The one thing I would like for any of the companies out there to do is get an original and copy the thickness of the blade and distal taper, etc, more accurately. It would seem this should not be too hard to do!
But all in all, I love these two sabres. I was so impressed with the quality and workmanship of the MRL sabres and their price ( around $98.00), I have ordered five so far and given them away as gifts to friends. The Ames Repro I gave to my brother in law as a wedding gift since it was his gr gr grandfather that toted the Boker sabre in the Civil War.
Pros
The handles, grips, leather coverings and wire wrapping were superb. Their weight was not bad, just their balance a tad off.
The blades, as stated, were well made, highly tempered, etc, with nice fullers and the scabbards were heavy duty and well made as well.
Cons
The blade thickness and distal taper not like the original, just one thickness most of the blade. And the sabres fit a bit too loosely in the scabbards.
Give a brief list of the aspects of the sword that you believed were the most negative, for example:
The Bottom Line
The bottom line is this: I would highly recommend either of these sabres to anyone wanting a good, well made repro which would be perfect for reenacting, practicing sabre drill and combat, etc.. They are not so wonderfully balanced as the originals but they aren’t that bad either. The sabres are very well made, quality of construction and workmanship on mine was great, and you just can not beat a good, well made sabre repro for around a hundred bucks!!
The two main grips I have is that their blade thickness and distal taper are not like the originals, which greatly effects the balance and handling characteristics and the blades slide out of the scabbards much too easily.