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Post by tribalphilippines on Dec 19, 2010 6:24:57 GMT
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Sébastien
Senior Forumite
Retired Moderator
Posts: 2,967
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Post by Sébastien on Dec 19, 2010 6:30:56 GMT
Damn, that's so sexy. Expressing how sexy this blade is would be inappropriate on this forum
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Post by Wes on Dec 19, 2010 7:10:38 GMT
The carvings on the blade of these weapons always leaves me speechless. Traditionally, was there tribal significance to these carvings or were they always purely for decoration?
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Post by tribalphilippines on Dec 19, 2010 7:33:05 GMT
Wes: What do you mean by carving? You mean the waves? The waves are believed to have some talismanic properties. The more waves the higher the potency. Swords like this are hard to make and require expert craftsmanship since the blade is wavy, it has a tendency to just bounce off from the target so it is a must for the maker to make sure each wave is sharp.
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Dec 19, 2010 8:06:01 GMT
I believe Wes is referring to the carvings around the hilt at the base of the blade. Oddly enough, I myself prefer the straight variant of the Kris. I dunno why. It just seems so much more visually appealing to me.
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Post by tribalphilippines on Dec 19, 2010 9:00:46 GMT
I see. The gangya (hand guard) also is considered to have talismanic powers here. I don't know how true it is, but I've been told by the moro sword makers here that it is where the spirit of the sword resides. During the process of making of the old swords, incantations were used. As you can see, Moro kris swords also resembles the Malay/indonesian kris. Although the Moro kris evolved to bigger sizes compared to his southeast asian cousins.
Fun Facts regarding the origin of Boogeyman:
In Southeast Asia, the term is commonly accepted to refer to Bugis or Buganese pirates, ruthless seafarers of southern Sulawesi, Indonesia's third largest island. These pirates often plagued early English or Dutch trading ships, namely those of the British East India Company or Dutch East India Company. It is popularly believed that this resulted in the European sailors bringing their fear of the "bugi men" back to their home countries hence the name boogeyman. And the weapon of choice for these pirates were the keris.
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Post by Wes on Dec 19, 2010 17:24:31 GMT
Yeah what Vincent said. Some very interesting info, thanks for that
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Post by thepepperskull on Jan 7, 2011 7:33:02 GMT
Looks like a Maranao or Maguindanao piece if we want to get into specifics. I wanna say WWII era or a bit older, but the furniture looks newer than that. Not brand new, but definitely after it was originally made. Looks like someone tried to 'age' the blade up to make it more attractive to tourists or amateur collectors who don't know any better, then cleaned it up a bit. Artificial aging is done a lot in tourist shops In the Philippines, where the seller or supplier of these blades buried the blade into the ground for several days, then cleans off any active rust. Why they did it to a genuinely old blade is beyond me, though. I have a feeling this had a real and very attractive natural patina to the blade before they got their hands on it. A real shame about that. A new polish/cleaning, then a soaking in warm citric juices for a few minutes would be a step in the right direction in terms of a proper finish to a Moro kris. The original patination it gained over the years is long gone, but the process I justmmentioned is how the Pandays (Smiths) and polishers of Kris traditionally finish their blades. It results in a nice, even, dark grey colour to the blade. It's said that this is preferred over a shiny blade because of its practical uses. The citric etching of the blade would protect it from serious active rust, and the dark/dull grey of the blade would shine less brightly in the sun: an advantage when sneaking up on enemies. I have handled and studied many Moro Kris. My personal favourite are the half-waved Sulu pieces from around the 18th century. Dubbed "Transition pieces" by collectors and scholars of the Moro Kris because it is the 'in-between' version of the Kris sword as we know it now from its predecessor, the Malay Keris (which is a dagger). Here is a couple of examples of one of those "Transition" pieces from Sulu. Half-waved. Smooth curves, beautiful. The center of these blades were usually twistcore. Moros were amazing bladesmiths. (Please note that these are not mine) Note the talismanic fullers along the blade. They end in a strange-looking tip that is actually a stylized crocodile. Later pieces with these fullers were often inlaid with Silver. Silver and Swasaa (gold-copper alloy, made for its attractive red colour) were popular metals to use in fancier handles of Kris.
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Post by tribalphilippines on Jan 8, 2011 19:43:28 GMT
Thanks for the input. I beg to differ from your opinion about the kris being artificially aged. The sword belonged to a household who was not really keen on taking care of it. It was just kept tucked away somewhere in the house and never bothered to clean it up once in a while add to it the weather they had there. That's why it developed surface rust which still has dark marks you can see on the pics. Burying blades to make it older are usually done on new blades. No need to do that on old ones because its either rusted as it is or too valuable to do that on. They usually use some kind of chemical which does permanent damage to the blade. I don't think they would be stup!d enough to do that to an old valuable blade. What I did with this blade is I just cleaned it up to remove some rust but not thoroughly because the lamination marks might disappear if I do. You can actually see the lamination lines undulating from the top to near tip. What do you use when cleaning up a blade? About etching, have you had any experience? What citric juice is most effective? I, personally haven't tried etching some of my swords. Scared I might damage it. By the way, do share with us pics of your Moro swords. I bet you have nice ones in your collection.
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Post by Anuan on Mar 4, 2011 11:56:27 GMT
Very glad I popped into this thread. A karma point for each of you, thepepperskull and tribalphillipines, for sharing the wonderful information and images.
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Post by buliwyf on Jul 28, 2011 18:10:34 GMT
Well I didnt plan to ever post my Kris sword (not one of my favorites) but since somebody else did and it seems a few people have knowledge about them here I go.I know my great grandfather once owned it and I remember looking at it as a kid some 50 years ago in my dads house.I took the best pics with a old camera. The wooden scabbard has seen much better days. Doing a quick measure the blades about 24in and the total sword is about 30in. Any info would be helpfull.BTW Tribal your kris is beautiful.
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Post by thepepperskull on Aug 8, 2011 5:08:34 GMT
^ You ever consider selling it, I'm considering buying it.
This kris looks Maguindanao to me. The 'elephant mouth' at the base of the blade is shaped typical of this tribe's work. The Maguindanao tribes were also fond of covering their hilts or pommels in metal. Some of the more extravagant ones were covered in low-grade silver and gold, sometimes in Suasa which is a gold and copper alloy made to produce a rose coloured metal.
This pommel in particular looks to me to be either Brass or White brass that has been heavily patinated. DO NOT POLISH IT. Rule of thumb for preserving old Kris is that you leave Brass, White Brass and Copper alone. Gold, Silver, and Suasa are the only metal substances to be polished on old pieces.
I'm still learning a lot about kris location origins. The pommel is on backwards and the twine wrap is in need of repair (rewrap and re-laquering) but all in all is still intact. It reminds me of Maranao work as opposed to Maguindanao. The two tribes did a lot of trade and at times war so this is not uncommon, seeing a kris with a maguindanao blade with a maranao hilt.
Again, if you were thinking about selling it, lemme know. I would ber very interested in buying.
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Post by thepepperskull on Jun 15, 2012 4:55:19 GMT
A Moro Kalis, or Kris (from Mindanao, southern Philippines) ca. early to mid-1800's This piece is one I've been paying for in installments for the past few months and is finally paid off and coming to me as we speak. I cannot wait to hold it in my hands. To give you guys an idea of its size, it has a 20-inch blade. There are three distinct Moro tribes in Mindanao: The Maguindanao, The Maranao, and The Tausug. This particular Kris is a Tausug piece. The Tausug people were inhabitants of Sulu island, then known as "Jolo". Back in the day, Jolo was the seat of power for all of Mindanao, and the Sulu Sultanate controlled most of Mindanao as well as a good portion of Borneo and nearby regions of mainland southeast asia. As such, trade was frequent meaning the region became a cultural hub of sorts, attracting people from as far away as africa and the middle east to the adventure it promised. A fellow hobbyist and collector of Moro pieces lead me to this passage about the Sulu of old: "The Sulu Archipelago seems to have become the dumping ground for the Oriental world. Here you find renegade Arabs; native Indian soldiers, for whom India has become too hot; even the Sudan, bad as it is, occasionally has a man so bad, he has to drift to Sulu. Like a Western mining camp of old, Sulu is full of adventure." - John F. Bass, Harper's Weekly, November 18, 1899I could go on about the ritual/cultural reasoning behind the shape of the blade as well as the meaning of the carvings and forge work at the base of the blade, but I'll leave that up to you guys if you have any questions and just show you some pics (finally). Looking at this piece makes me think of all the Adventure this thing must have seen. If only old pieces like this could talk... In the Tausug dialiect of Bahasa Sug, this half-waved kris style is referred to as a Kalis Taluseko. The hilt is made of Carabao (Water Buffalo) horn. The silver fittings you see on the hilt were generally made out of melted spanish coins. The grip areas between the silver are wrapped in Jute cord and laquered black. In Moro culture, Horn was not commonly used but not unheard of, and the silverwork indicates that this piece once belonged to someone of high status in Tausug society. There is evidence that this hilt and the silver asang-asang (blade stirrup/clamp) was a later addition. The original hilt was most likely some type of wood or even ivory in the shape of a kakatua, or Bird's head. The intricate work on the blade suggests someone of status also originally owned this as well, as the forge shape and file lines are crisp and well-made. Had this been a commoner's kris it would have bee made to a lower standard. It was common for blades of these pieces to find new hilts and be passed down from generation to generation. Heirloom kris are referred to as Pusaka and can go back centuries. Feel free to ask if you have any questions! (And yes, that IS a twistcore pattern in the blade )
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Post by thepepperskull on Jun 27, 2012 1:53:04 GMT
This Kris just got delivered today and man is it nice! 1/2 inch thick at the base and tapers to the tip but is still thick when compared to my other kris. The blade is 19.5 inches long, and is balanced incredibly light for such a hefty-looking blade. The balance is at the second wave where the two wider fullers in the middle end. Balance on other half-wave Kris is usually on the third or fourth wave in my experience, but this is a completely different beast altogether. Possibly the lightest-handling Kris I have, as well as the thickest. I can't put this thing down!
I can't wait to get some free time and really get this thing clean and etched.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2012 10:39:43 GMT
I really wish i paid more attention when i was younger. My uncles brought back a lot of blades from northern PI(Illocos norte). Only now when i'm older and more experienced can i appreciate these blades.
Thank you very much for making these threads.
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