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Post by Vincent Dolan on Oct 23, 2010 2:50:14 GMT
Okay, as many probably know, this isn't really my side of the playground, but I've recently developed a fair interest in Euro swords for their variety over the near clone feeling you get with most production katana and the notable lack of quality Chinese swords (my preferred area). Anyways, one of the things that attracts me to a Euro, for whatever reason, is a narrowed ricasso, which seems to be one of the defining characteristic of Type XVIIIe. What I'd like to know is what purpose, if any, this actually serves. Thanks in advance.
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Sean (Shadowhowler)
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on Oct 23, 2010 2:58:52 GMT
Aside from looking very cool... I don't know. Most swords I've seen with a noticeable inward ricasso taper tend to also be somewhat thick and blunt at that point... with allows you to hook a finger there if you wish. Beyond that... I just think they look very slick. Like the Atrim 1509, one of my favorites.
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Post by LittleJP on Oct 23, 2010 3:01:32 GMT
Half swording.
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Aaron
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Post by Aaron on Oct 23, 2010 3:30:37 GMT
There are a number of XVIIIe's that have a ricasso too short for half-swording. It could also be present to put more blade mass toward the tip of the blade to counter the massively long hilts they generally had. Most swords were blunt in the strong of the blade to allow for half-swording, if the ricasso offered a huge benefit over just keeping the strong dull, then I think we would have seen the feature on many more blade types of the time.
That said, I very well could be talking out of my backside and will naturally defer to more knowledgeable members.
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Post by Cold Napalm on Oct 23, 2010 3:54:15 GMT
It is basically a way to fiddle with the mass distibution of the sword. The longer ones had a secondary benefit of a nice place to grip for half swording.
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TomK
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Post by TomK on Oct 23, 2010 12:13:03 GMT
you should ask this question over at VA's custom sword shoppe, I bet Gus would respond with some interesting knowledge. there is a reason, you can count on it. I am leaning towards the mass distribution side of the discussion myself.
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Post by chuckinohio on Oct 23, 2010 13:35:07 GMT
Pending the opinion of someone who is actually a sword smith, I am gonna pitch in with Tom and Cold on the mass distribution side.
Outside of aesthetics, it is the only really reasonable explanation that comes to mind.
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Post by MOK on Oct 25, 2010 19:33:20 GMT
One thing about a thick, narrow ricasso is that it makes fingering the cross - ie. looping the index finger over the crossguard for increased point control, sort of like half-swording but with less decrease in reach - easier and more comfortable. (Virtually all rapier blades feature a ricasso like this, for instance, enclosed within the complex hilt.) Such a thick, square edge is also basically immune to chipping and deforming, which is a very good thing at the strong where most blade-to-blade contact happens (at least if you do it right ), and making the blade narrower in profile allows for an increase in thickness without added weight.
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Post by CivilSavage on Oct 26, 2010 19:51:02 GMT
Seems there is nothing to add...all good info.
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TomK
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Post by TomK on Oct 27, 2010 0:06:12 GMT
on the contrary there are volumes to be added, we just don't have the knowledge to add it. Gus Trim has a much better knowledge of this than most folks and he has opened a discussion on it over at VA's Custom Sword Shoppe forum: custom-sword-shoppe.com/forum/vi ... 33db#p2036 what he has to say in that thread, looks to me, like an opener; an invite to more. I'm sure he has more he could say on the matter, we just have to ask. I suggest we all pop over there, read the thread and post questions like mad to see what we can learn.
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Post by CivilSavage on Oct 27, 2010 6:47:35 GMT
Peter Johsson would likely have plenty to add as well, but it would at this point turn to more esoteric fine points than the overall practical aspect of the purpose of narrowed ricassos. I should know, I worked with him. Frankly, since no smith of the 15th or 16th century, to my knowledge, left a written record of preferrences in regards to design of swords so most of this is conjecture anyhow. We don't really know 'why'.
Mass distribution, which effects many aspects of a swords physical and dynamic properties. Along with the fashion of the time, so we can include a purely aesthetic purpose. In addition a possible technical employment in regards to the use of the weapon itself. That sums it up. What's to add? A discussion of the miniscule movement of vibrational nodes along the linear axis of the blade? The likely minor effect of the blades harmonics? These are likely to be negligible when compared to tang length, pommel weight, crossection, profile and distal taper...
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TomK
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Post by TomK on Oct 27, 2010 15:12:43 GMT
I would sure be interested in hearing Mr. Johnsson's thoughts on this topic as well, and Tinker's too, and the thoughts of anyone who makes swords and there for has personal experience in the matter. right now Gus is the only one talking so I'm listening and hearing what he has to say. if you are satisfied that you have learned all you need to know from us folk here who really don't know anything than more power to you.
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Post by MOK on Oct 27, 2010 16:32:12 GMT
Ah, but the devil really is in the details. Even the smallest things can add up to something significant; just because the overall large scale measurements of the blade have a larger effect (naturally enough) doesn't mean that the fine tuning from all the little details like this is meaningless. And personally, I'm a total geek. I live for the "esoteric fine points". I say if somebody has more to add, please, bring it on!
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TomK
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Post by TomK on Oct 27, 2010 18:58:56 GMT
I'm with you MOK! that's why I'm paying attention to the thread at CSS forum
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