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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2007 9:06:28 GMT
Hey! I want to know why so many people say it's "Impossible" to learn martial arts training from a book. I find it rather annoying. I believe it is possible to learn from a book, Maybe not be come an absolute master, but whos to say who is a master? There are endless things to learn in any style of martial art. So why cant you learn from a book? If you're smart it's the same thing as someone telling you what to do. Yes you'll make mistakes and do some things incorrectly, but with quite a bit of self annylization you can correct your own mistakes can't you? I know many Martial art elitists will shun this thought, but it's what i believe and what undoubtebly seems possible to me or for me at least. - thanks, rob age 15(btw, ever hear of a RONIN A MASTERLESS Samurai)
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Post by rammstein on Jun 25, 2007 10:19:35 GMT
For the same reason that fencing can't be applied to the battlefield: It hasn't been proven useful in combat. Oh sure, it undoubtedly evolved from rapier dueling, but when was the last time you've seen a sabreur kill someone? The reason why is because it's become so detatched from actual fighting that "points" are more important than "kills." Nasty habits develop that would easily be stamped out in battlefield. Anyways, because it has lost it's point of reference, war, fencing can no longer be considered sword fighting.
The same holds true for learning martial arts from a book. Whos to say your doing something wrong? Self anylization? From what point of reference? You have no one to draw your experience from and therefore you are never a competent judge of your own abilities.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2007 11:24:35 GMT
"RONIN A MASTERLESS Samurai" The meaning is that he doesnt serve a Lord,in other words he is unemployed not that he hasnt trained with a sensei.
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Post by rammstein on Jun 25, 2007 13:38:11 GMT
Therebel, I'm not saying you can't learn from a book. I'm saying that you can't learn an entire martial way with only a book. Even "mostly" with a book still doesn't begin to teach you the nuances that can only be taught with a living breathing individual.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2007 17:48:07 GMT
I happen to have a tad of experience in instructional design. Anything can be taught through a book, but most of the time it is poorly done. So I would say that it's not due to your limitations, or the limitations of martial arts, but the limitations of the authors in question.
Most books do not supply you with all the information that you need.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2007 19:57:52 GMT
The biggest problem in self training is self analysis. If you have access to something like a dance studio or somewhere with full body mirrors and have a keen eye for detail(emphasis on KEEN eye for detail) you can match your postures and positions well to images in your books. If you can set up a video camera on a tripod, you can film yourself doing forms and then watch in slow motion and keep very aware of everything as you watch yourself. The key is that you can never be overly-self-critical when self training. Because you don't have the experience of a teacher who knows this stuff and are basically going it without the guidance thereof, you have to hold yourself to a higher standard(though I ALWAYS hold myself to the HIGHEST standard).
Have a good knowledge of engineering and anataomy helps as well. Good knowledge of those two things will allow you practical knowledge of how to best set up your body into good posture in ways that most people don't even think of(for example keeping your abdominals engaged to properly align the pelvis with the lumbar spine), which you can again make sure you're doing in the mirrors or videos.
That'd be the best way to do it. Of course, it also helps considerably to have a martial background in something else - while that alternate martial background won't necessarily mean you'll learn this new stuff perfectly, it will at least aid in your ability to keep it practical, depending on the practicality of the art you have a background in. People with martial training are often aware of certain aspects of movement and different martial principles which are universal, that people without that training lack, which can make all the difference.
Generally, and I'm not trying to imply ANYTHING, but you can't be dumb and self-trained. Having experience teaching Aikido and some European Martial Arts, and fancying myself a pretty good teacher given my experience, there are a lot of people that practice for months and years with even the basics, who don't have the awareness to know that they're not that great. I can only imagine how crappy they'd be without a teacher. It takes a lot of mental development to train this way. You have to LIVE it to get as much experience as you can. Read your book every morning first thing you wake up and every night before you go to bed, and at least several times throughout the day. Meditate on it. Take it seriously.
Even so, just having an 'okay' or 'not-too-great' teacher is better than trying all of that(doing all that AND having a teacher is best). But if you absolutely CANNOT get a teacher, and absolutely HAVE to practice that art, then the above should help.
Just remember, if it's an art involving a weapon, you can NEVER be too careful.
I take NO responsibility for any injury you may receive in your self training. I'm not saying YOU can do it, I'm only saying that it CAN be done to varying degrees. Please don't sue me if you hurt yourself.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2007 19:58:12 GMT
By the way: Good Luck, Rob.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2007 21:57:52 GMT
I think you can get some idea from a book or video if you have no prior experience. If you are already getting live instruction you can pick up some tips. You will not be able to really advance beyond the basics from just a book or video. The problem is that many of the strikes, defenses and maneuvers are very subtle. You will overlook many subtle areas. It is those subtle areas that make the difference between winner and looser.
To give you an example, I was taught 5 or 6 basic strikes when I started SCA fighting. I wan not even in armor yet. I practiced them a pell with no problem and the strikes seemed fine. Then I get in front of a real person and I realized I knew nothing. The other person who was more experienced them me, was not doing anything fancy. You was actually limiting himself to just two types of strikes. His strikes where similar to mine except for some minor differences that are not noticeable unless you know what you are looking for. Those minor differences in what he was doing was the reason why he was hitting me and I could not hit him. It took me many months of constant practice and coaching to learn to make those small adjustments.
This is not to say that books are not of any use. When fighting polearm, greatsword or even rapier fencing, I am able to make use of knowledge I have learned in books. It also allows me to process new information much faster because I already have a basic knowledge and know the terminology.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2007 4:10:05 GMT
Well you all have made valid points. Yet i still belive it can be done. Of course i would love to have someone teaching me but I doubt there are any dojos for the specific arts that want to start learning so books are most likely the only way. btw i live in Poughkeepsie NY. Plus i doubt i can afford to take classes. So my only option is books, videos, ect....(the arts i want to start learning are Ninjutsu, Iaijutsu, and Kenjutsu.) I have a strong will to learn these arts no matter how long it takes be it by books or by a sensei.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2007 7:03:13 GMT
I think it's important to note that Tsafa's points apply to FIGHTING as opposed to techniques. You CANNOT learn to FIGHT by yourself. You can only learn to fight by experience and building up to it with others who you can fight or with an instructor.
Techniques on the other hand can be learned solo. I learn Aikido techniques all the time from books that I'm able to successfully apply at the dojo that my Sensei has never taught me. The difference is I have a lot of experience in the art with other techniques that use similar movements and principles, so by reading and really figuring these things out I can learn them without having to be taught.
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Razor
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Post by Razor on Jun 26, 2007 8:06:32 GMT
I pretty much agree with Adam, once you reach a certain level with some kind of martial arts, self defense or sports like boxing, wrestling etc., it would be a lot easier to learn from a book or video.
The WMA was a dead art and it 's getting resurrected from old books written long ago. All the WMA instructors are teaching from theirs or others interpretations of the old fighting manuscripts. Christian Tobler said in a myarmory post that his view changed between his two books,and Stephen Hand said if you wanted to learn MS I.33 from his book Medieval Sword and Shield you should also get Spada II because of the changes he did.
I was surfing the web awhile ago and found this one site about a instructor saying that you could learn from books and gave lots of examples, I remember one where he was giving a seminar and two guys lived far away from any schools that taught the style they wanted,so they started to study from a book. The two guys were learning from the book for about a year before taking the seminar and the instructor said he had to show them some minor stuff but they were about the same level as other students who were being trained by an instructor for the same period of time.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2007 8:11:22 GMT
Also, I've basically taught myself WMA... never had any sort of formal training in it... and yet when i go to ren. faires to fight the local practitioners(who've fought WMA for years and years... some of them like.. 15-20 years...) the only ones I couldn't soundly beat were the Guild Champions.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2007 11:00:26 GMT
Well you all have made valid points. Yet i still belive it can be done. Of course i would love to have someone teaching me but I doubt there are any dojos for the specific arts that want to start learning so books are most likely the only way. btw i live in Poughkeepsie NY. Plus i doubt i can afford to take classes. So my only option is books, videos, ect....(the arts i want to start learning are Ninjutsu, Iaijutsu, and Kenjutsu.) I have a strong will to learn these arts no matter how long it takes be it by books or by a sensei. You have a very strong ethic, which is good if your focus is as intent as you said it is. I was fortunate enough to have an instructor living two houses up when I was at your age, but at other times of my life I have driven 2 hours to a 2 hour lesson( 2 hours back as well) after doing 8 hours work. If it is what you truly want, one day as sure as the sun will come up tomorrow you will get the instruction you need. Rather than trying to learn from a book, try to read to understand what particular art you would like to train in then read as much as you can on the style you choose so you can distinguish the Shite schools and 'sensei's', from the true Budo. Never forget mate, Knowledge is a powerful thing. Even if you were 25 it still would not be TOO old to start a traditional art(i.e Koryu). Most Koryu's prefer a certain level of maturity before you will gain or see the point to alot of their learning. Iaido - is possible to learn the basics of from a manual, but the most important thing in your learning is the feedback recieved from your instructor. I only say this, as these arts are tried and tested over say 500 years and for you to achieve the image in your head of you being FULLY trained, would require a good instructor to teach you the 500 years of details and techniques that go with the particular schools weapons and styles. Ninjutsu - This would require a teacher mate. There are so many aspects of ninjutsu, that you would probably miss the point reading just one view from a book. Kenjutsu - You will defintely need someone else to do kata with . To learn an art that is essentially about defence/attack from a sword weilding assailant, you MUST have someone come at you with a bokken to understand the urgency of proper learning. Please read this essay from the Koryu I currently study's(Shinto muso ryu) head teacher in Japan. It is titled: Uchidachi(the one who recieves the technique) and Shidachi(one who does the technique). koryu.com/library/tnishioka1.htmlI think it encompasses nicely your want of true learning. Good luck !
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2007 13:27:35 GMT
That was a very good post Chop.
Adam, thanks for clearing up what I said with regards to learning to fight and learning techniques. It is what I was hinting at when I said I have been able to apply the longsword training I learned on my own to my SCA fighting.
When I started doing Live Steel, the techniques I learned in books fell right into place. Other people more experienced still found faults and helped further refine my technique, but at the same time told me I had a very good basis to work from.
I have to add that having looked at a few manuals and interpretations, at the moment it is easiest to learn longsword from a book. I don't know if this is because the techniques are inherently simpler? if it is because detailed manuals exist? or because of the quality of the interpretations?
I looked at some Asian fighting books and I did not feel I had a good understanding. It may be that the art aspect may be adding additional layers that can not be easily illustrated. That was from the perspective of having no training in any Oriental martial arts. Perhaps I have not come across a good enough interpretation.
I have studied a few rapier manuals and I found little use of them with a few exceptions. That is from the perspective of having had extensive training prior. The important stuff is just too subtle to illustrate on paper. The complexity of the distance and timing is also too hard to do justice to.
When it comes to sword and shield combat, there is nothing really out there. I don't think it would make much sense because there are a lot of subtleties. It might work with video if the instruction is very good.
So in my opinion Longsword is a good place to start if you are going to learn on your own. The strikes with both hands are clear enough so you can get an idea of what is going on. Everything is very straight forward with one purpose of killing the other person as fast as possible. This style of fighting can be applied to any two-handed form. Most important there is good literature you can buy that is clear and easy to understand.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2007 19:02:45 GMT
And remember - if you know martial arts, then you can improvise techniques.
One thing I've seen in pretty much every weapon art is that there are a set number of openings(usually 4, sometimes 5), and there are anywhere from 6-8 basic methods of attack(vertical, 2 downward diagonal, two horizontal, 2 upward diagonal are the 7 that I use).
The rest is simple: Find the best postures from which your openings are closed to the opponent, and then learn to move and advance in such a way as to open your opponent's opening and strike them with one of those 7(or 6, or 8, or whatever) basic attacks.
Then you have the beginning of an art. As you practice, hopefully with others who also have a martial mindset, you can begin to elaborate - find ways to force your opponent to move in such a way that you can control not only your own sword, but your opponent's sword as well. When you can control not only your own attacks(hard in itself) but also how your opponent must respond to those attacks, you can always win the bout. This is very difficult to do, but in the end that's what swordsmanship is all about. Japanese, European, doesn't matter. That's the way it works.
Remember, while people HAVE been practicing and refining this stuff for hundreds of years, it had to start somewhere. And if you can't find a teacher for your own art, get a teacher of another art to give you a foundation to work with, then begin analyzing the potentialities of what you have at hand(sword, sword and shield, etc.) How can you use your weapon to strike effectively? How can you defend yourself with it? What is the most efficient way you can transition to cover an opening? How can you attack while keeping your openings closed? Really really meditate on these and similar questions, and it will have a positive effect on your training.
Then of course branch out. Every once in awhile goto a swordsmanship seminar or something. Expand your foundation to other arts - they will ALL benefit one another to some degree.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2007 6:28:49 GMT
Thanks for the advise guys. I have found a bujinkan dojo in my area. That advise adam gave about a foundation art really spoke to me. - Thanks all , Rob
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2007 9:21:45 GMT
Nice one dude ;D, I hope you enjoy your training. I still really look forward to training after all these years, good for your mind as well. As far as I am aware ninjutsu is now referred to as Bujinkan so you sound on the right track. Pleas keep us informed on your progress . I don't think we have any bujinkan contributors as of yet ?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2007 14:40:13 GMT
Hi chopchop,
There seems to be a few Bujinkan practictioners hiding in the shadows of the forum - but a search can reveal their presence!
'Bujinkan' is as far as I understand, the shortened term for a specific organisation or the collection of arts taught by the Bujinkan organisation - not all ninjutsu/ninjitsu (?) schools are part of the organisation.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2007 14:45:50 GMT
Sorry my mistake mate. There is also Ninpo amongst other veins.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2007 17:03:57 GMT
Nothing to be worried about!
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