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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2007 13:54:17 GMT
Hello all, As some of you know I practice with a Civil War era Cav sabre and have built me a pell with tires recently. On the "Importance of the Pell" thread we have been talking about using pells, etc..
Now here lately since I built it I have been practicing simple cuts and thrusts, etc, just to keep my wrist and arm in shape, or trying to, and also to develope finess, coordination, etc.. Only a few times have I hit the tire with any real force. I have yet to mount the arms w/balls, etc., but will soon.
But one thing I have practiced here lately that I never gave much credit to was the lunge. I thought that was for rapiers, etc.. I have a bad ankle and knee on my left leg so I have to be careful. Anyway, so I was thinking that rather than lunges, I would just step to, parry, cut, and thrust or what have you. Yes you can put some force into a thrust with just arm and shoulder. But I learned just how powerful a lunge is when you do it correctly and use the power of your whole body, skeletol alignment, your launching leg to push, etc..
After a few warm up moves, strikes, cuts, etc, I got set up in my ready stance, centerline, etc, and lunged, and like the Cold Steel Fighting with the Sabre and Cutlass demonstrates, with my sabre out, skeletal alignment just right, used my leg to launch me into it. I thust my arm out at the correct time and lauched into my thrust using my leg to propell me, etc.. Dude!! I am 6' 1" and weigh 316lbs and thought I could thrust with my arm and shoulder and not need a lunge. When I launched into that "sho'nuff" lunge, my sabre's blade dug into that tire, flexed a bit, and nearly knocked my pell over!! And it is on a cross stand three feet wide with 15 inch car tires hanging on it! My gosh, I bet a lunge, if connected, in a real fight would just transfix someone!
I just had to see the difference again so I got back into my ready stance, shuffled foward and thrust with just my arm and shoulder. It was a pretty good thrust. Then I backed up out of sabre's reach, got into my stance and lunged again! What power the lunge has in it! When you lunch properly you launch your whole body, and with skeletol alignment correct, sabre out, you just hit that tire like a battering ram with the weight and power of your whole body and legs in it, and not just your arm and shoulder like a regular thrust! The lunge is something I am practicing now!! Just had to share that with y'all! Freebooter
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2007 18:40:44 GMT
Hi Freebooter, I have done a lot of work with lunges in my rapier fighting. It is important to realize that when you lunge forward and take that big step, the whole time your foot is in the air, you have given up some control. You are committed to a forward attack. For this reason, according to one history/fencing buff in my practice, the classical Olympic style lunge was completely unknown in the 15th century. If you miss, your dead. Demi-lunges were used more commonly.
Your willingness to leap forward changes in a real duel. If you are going to do it, you best have your dagger or your own forte between yourself and the other persons blade. Lunging straight in without first controlling the other persons blade will usually result in a double kill. In my book, dead is dead. If you die, you lost, does not matter if the other person is dead too.
That said, and since I am not fighting with real swords, I often make use of Lunges and Double Lunge (also known as redoubling). Normally when you lunge you will not fully extend your leg. You do this so that you have enough leverage to lunge back out if you miss. If your lunge falls 2 or 3 inches short and your opponent is just standing there grinning at you, you can lunge out again from you already extended position to an over-extended position to get that kill. The drawback is that if you don't get him, he will get you. You are too over-extended to retreat fast enough.
Another type of lunge is what has been called the Ballestra. From the normal stance, you bring you back leg up to your forward heal and lunge from there. It covers a lot of space fast.
Another option for a case fighter is a change-up lunge. You have two swords, and are standing natural leading with you right leg and you right sword. From the natural stance your rear left leg come over your right leg and lands in a lunge. You extend the left sword. This is hard to do, I have only succeeded in getting a kill with this once. Its a large movement that gives the other person time to retreat.
With the saber, you have the added advantage that the other guy is expecting a cut. I recommend you disguise you thrust to look like a cut. Start your cutting motion and then just bring the tip in with a lunge. That cut to thrust motion is one of the keys to landing a thrust in armored fighting.
Freebooter, you also mentioned that you are quite tall, 6'1". Lunging will definitely play to your advantage as you have a long reach. You also mentioned that you are 316 lbs. I don't recommend deep lunges, you won't be able to get out fast enough if your lunge fails. Stick to the demi-lunges. The saber has a good enough tip on it so that you don't need to overpower your lunges against unarmed opponents. If you get 3 inches of penetration the fight is over.
I was watching a Discovery Channel show called "Body Armor". It showed how knives can penetrate standard police vests because of the force concentration in the tip. The bullet is usually rounded. Because a knife is pointy, they said that the force is 10 times that of a handgun bullet. Knife stabs are also a double whammy vs the bullet. They showed using sensors on a target and a computer, how there are two forces at play. First that of the knife itself as it strikes and then the secondary force of the hand and momentum of the body pushing the knife.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2007 2:50:09 GMT
Great points guys!
I'm pretty inexperienced with it comes to weapons techniques, so please don't hold back on criticisms! I've found that if I do use a mini-lunge to make a thrusting attack then I often find switching the lead leg immediately to the propulsive leg to make a step in a direction away from the opponent (or when unarmed, behind them using pivoting) can be useful in getting off the line of a potential attack. I feel that using thrusts is quite useful when as a follow up to a cut as the opponent is evading or when the opponent has made a cut and is in the recovery phase of the movement... please share your experiences!
Also regarding the knife vs bullet... 10 times greater as an arbitrary amount seems slightly off; there would have to be many factors involved such as the technique and strength of the wielder, the shape and material of the knife as it offers mechanical advantage and not power. Bullets are also quite variable in shape (i.e. JHP JSP FMJ), material of manufacture (AP vs other) and propulsion - often documentaries are not particularly thorough in their examination of all potential components so perhaps they examined pistol ammunition as a typical instance vs body armour? I'll try to view this documentary, it sounds interesting!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2007 3:43:57 GMT
This is an unusual maneuver but it is a favorite of a very experienced rapier/cut and thrust fencer I know and have trained with. From my perspective it looked like he is striking and then running past me. He looked to me like he was falling off balance so I questioned him on it. He explained to me that he was striking and getting out of the way. At the time I was fighting him case and he also remarked how my having two swords made his get-away a lot more difficult. The reason being that I could angel the other blade in the direction he was moving in. The guy has about 15 more years experience them me and has won many tournaments. I still feel that that maneuver creates opportunities if you pursue the person aggressively.
By the way on the issue of body armor I was having a conversation with a cop in my gym about 6 months ago with regard to arrows. I asked him if he though arrows could go through a bullet proof vest. His response was that they don't even stop knives. Only small caliber bullets with round heads. He said that cops have the option of inserting a 5 lb mettle plate in the chest area to stop knives. So what he told me was in line with what the documentary was saying. The documentary also stated that knife stabs are more common in Britain then gunshot wounds, so British police often buy special vests to protect against knife stabs. I was interesting that one of the options they were testing was modern modified mail. It resembled medieval mail very much.
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Post by ShooterMike on Apr 28, 2007 4:08:21 GMT
Hi guys,
The kevlar soft body armor you are referring to is woven of very strong fibers, assembled in many layers. They actually "catch" pistol bullets because the point of the bullet is blunt. Then the bullets deform against the fibers. Sharply pointed FMJ rifle bullets will generally penetrate soft body armor due in part to having a sharp metal tip, and in part due to much higher impact velocity. That's one reason most modern vest carriers have a pocket in front and back for trauma plates. These plates help prevent blunt trauma from the impacts, and also help deform rifle bullets so they won't punch all the way through the remaining kevlar fibers.
When a bladed weapon is used against that type of protection, the point and edge of the blade slice the fibers and penetrate. That's similar to how the armor is made. Kevlar fibers are relatively easy to cut with scissors and easy to sew on normal industrial sewing machines. So unless there is something in there to stop the cutting action, the procection of the vest is compromised.
Bottom line: Freebooter's lunge would likely not only transfix an unarmored opponent, but would do the same to anyone wearing soft body armor without a frontal trauma plate. OUCH!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2007 4:16:53 GMT
Thanks for clearing that up Mike.
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Post by ShooterMike on Apr 28, 2007 4:23:36 GMT
Oh, I forgot about this. Freebooter can likely comment more on this than I, but I understand that the soft body armor used in correctional facilities incorporates a strong wire mesh within the weave to stop shanks and other cutting and penetrating weapons, in addition to bullets. Tsafa, I think that's the same thing you were referring to in England.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2007 6:54:58 GMT
I still feel that that maneuver creates opportunities if you pursue the person aggressively. tsafa, Thanks very much for relaying your experience - I'm just glad I wasn't doing something particularly stupid While this will depend on the situation at hand, do you feel that a direct retreat may present fewer opportunities?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2007 11:38:10 GMT
The key to a good retreat is that each successive step is a little shorter or you maneuver a little to the side. All movements must be made with some purpose. If you can get him to step to the side there is a chance he will square-off his shoulders and feet. This will present a bigger target to you and make it harder for him to move in good defensively order.
To explain, you start your attack which brings you in-range (for both of you), you exchange blows and retreat back so you are out of range, he follows, you retreat again so you are out of range. He follows again, and you retreat only this time you make a slightly smaller step. You are still out of range but the distance is smaller. He follows again, this time you again make a smaller step bringing him in-range. He does not realize you have changed the distance. You bind his blade with you forte or dagger and tag him. What we are doing here is using the retreat to lure him in.
You can also change the distance without him realizing by shifting to the side.
Also realize that people tend to form habits as they fight. You want to probe him from out of range to see how he reacts. Aim for his hand from out of range, you can't hit him, he won't be sure and will react. Does he retreat back in good defensive from or attempt to block it. By defending one area he will be opening up some other area. Test him a few times, does he open up the same area consistently. He may very well be retreating and bringing his blade off line in a manor that leaves his chest wide open.
Rule one for prosecutors in court is that they never ask a question, unless they know what the defendants answer will be. Rule one for swordmen is you never attack unless you have some idea how your opponent will react. You figure that out by testing him from out of range were you are safe.
That is a sound fighting strategy. Not so easy to do, with practice you get better, never perfect.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2007 12:42:04 GMT
tsafa,
Brilliant post!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2007 13:33:06 GMT
Hey y'all, I am overweight and not in the best of shape, so not as fast as a younger fighter in better shape. So I agree Tsafa, the lunge might turn out to be a trap I set for myself. If I miss then he could instantly reposte and skewer or cut me and in trying to recover or get out of it he could also move in and get me while I am off balance or not in the best position for defense. I like the feeling and security of having both feet under me and know how my balance lies.
About the knife proof vests that some corrections officer use. Here is a story aobut how one saved someone's life. I knew a couple of guys that wore them at a major institution I worked at for nine years. But this one I am at now I don't know of anyone wearing them. I will find out how they are contsructed and from what material and let y'all know. I do know that at Limestone Correctional Facilty when I was there an officer that wore one got jumped by 15 inmates. They had it out for him anyway. Not that this is any excuse, but he and another officer loved to pick and stir up stuff with inmates for little to no reason, just for fun sometimes, cursing them out, saying mean or vile things to them, tearing their bunk and box apart more than necessary, etc.. I know one officer that stomped on a picture of an inmate's wife and ground his foot on it. I told him that if that inmate had've jumped on him then I would have had to fight to help him, all because he wanted to be an ass. Anyway, they hated him as far as I know and some officers did not want to work with them because they were considered instigators and the officers felt that because of their antics another officer was going to get hurt one day coming to their aid, etc... You know they have a problem with that when the supervisors have to order them to behave at guardmount in front of everyone, that we are understrength and don't have much back up on hand, etc..
Anyway, this is the story I heard: One of those two officers was workng a dorm by himself, or his side of it, probably 200 inmates and just him. He was sitting on some steps giving out mail. A couple of times an inmate would ask him to speak up, that they could not hear in the rear of the pack. He would just curse them and tell them to F-Off, go cry to their F-ing crack head mammy, etc.. Finally he insulted an inmate's mama (from what I heard) in an even worse way and that inmate snapped and grabbed his ankles and drug him down those steps and commenced to beat him, some other joined in, and then they drug him into what we call a common bathroom and about fifteen of them worked him over pretty good. Of course the ""Cube Officer" radioed for back up as soon as the guy was grabbed on the steps. Limestone is the largest camp in Alabama (1 1/2 miles around the outer fence). It took a moment or two for other officers to show up. In the meantime the officer getting his socks beat off of him ws in a corner covering his face trying to keep from getting mauled too bad. Finally he got to his peperspray and when he did it was over. He sprayed it over his head in an arc getting any behind him. That cleared out that restroom, then he turned and ran through that dorm spraying that pepper spray at anybody and everyone he saw. He cleared that whole dorm out in moments. To say he was pissed is an understatement.
Later a bunch of small holes and cuts were found in his shirt in a certain area on his side. He then remembered feeling something hard and narrow hitting him in his side over and over. It was someone stabbing him. In the melee they must not have noticed that the stabs were not penetrating. The knife proof vest had saved the guy's life.
The ringleader of it got 15 years added to his original sentence for whatever they charged him with. Another three or four, the only ones the officer could ID, got lesser charges and time. But those inmates told the bossmen that the other officer was next, that there was about to be a riot on the count of their excessive crap they did to inmates all the time. The other officer was assigned to an outside farm squad a few days after that and the one that got slapped around supposedly made a statement when he came back to work; "If they are not trying to escape or hurt or rape someone or breaking the chowline or something, I ain't messing with 'em!"
But I will check on those knife proof vests and find out what is the difference between them and a bullet proof vests. This puts me in mind of that fine metal mesh or mail that divers wear sometimes, "Sharksuits". Sorry for the long winded post. FB
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