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Post by rammstein on Jan 3, 2007 20:51:31 GMT
The first part of the problem, I think, is that Shieldmen don't train often enough against pikemen. So when they have to face them, they are not very fluid. That right there is dead-on correct. It seems odd to find a lone pikeman on the field not backed by his formation. Therefore I think that people will often get cohcky (dern censor) and let their guard down. If it IS a competant shieldman however, that lone pikeman should not cause too much trouble. Get past the point and there is little they can do except try to get out of the way.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2007 21:21:20 GMT
I had to refresh my mind last night with about a basic fighting stratagy against polearms, which I will share. It is easy to forget old basics as you add new things.
As a sword and shieldman, once you close in, you attack in the same plane-line as the pike is held. So if the pike or spear is being held horizontaly, you sword blow should come in horizontaly. If he holds his pike verticaly, then you attack virticaly too. It makes no sence to attack horizontaly into a veticaly held pike cause he is already in position to block it. If you attack into his plane-line, say virtical strike with sword down a viticaly held pike, you have a clear line to his body. He most move his weapon to block. The pikeman can not come back at you viticaly so easily because you still have your shield in front of you while you strike.
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Post by rammstein on Jan 4, 2007 21:24:27 GMT
(being a bit of a devils advocate here, I want to see your repsonse to this:)
the problem with that though is that he can still muscle aside your sword by slapping it out of line with the side of the hilt. Then since your sword is out of the way, he only needs to fake around your shield and stab you.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2007 22:00:41 GMT
(being a bit of a devils advocate here, I want to see your repsonse to this:) the problem with that though is that he can still muscle aside your sword by slapping it out of line with the side of the hilt. Then since your sword is out of the way, he only needs to fake around your shield and stab you. The answer is simple... sometimes he does You can't win em all. Through all this I am still playing "sticky fingers". I am trying to keep my shield up against his polearm and staying with him as he moves. This keeps him from being able to swing. When I take my shot, I try to strike in the same plane-line as I discused before. So the shield is what keeps him from swinging with enough force to count. When I throw my shots, my shield should still be on his polearm... and shots thrown in his plane-line have a less chance of being blocked. The polearm'sman has his own set of counter techics to use. Against my sticky-fingers he might check me hard on my shield to push me back or push himself off and create space and then imideatly through a horizontal blow over my shieldline to my head. Basicly if I never make a mistake, and he never makes a mistake, no one should ever hit anyone and no one is that good. Usualy someone will land a blow within 30 to 50 seconds. But the point I was trying to make is people think the polearm has some massive advantage in singles combat and I think it does not.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2007 18:04:10 GMT
I should try this SCA it sounds fun. I can sword fight, and ambidexterious too, I can also use sheilds, poles and spears. But I would prefer a polearm or spear anyday.
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Post by rammstein on Jan 5, 2007 20:31:50 GMT
Tsafa, also if you are fighting to multiple blows (2 or more, I'm not sure if the sca does that or not. I say this cause usually in armor, one blow isn't enough to stop someone unless it is REALLY well placed) you can just run in on him take two quick shots while he really only has time to get one. Kind of cheating...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2007 20:32:16 GMT
You can find a group near you here: www.sca.org/Send an email to the nearest group in your area and they may be able to find a group even closer to you.
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Post by rammstein on Jan 5, 2007 20:36:46 GMT
tsafa, do you know if their is an age limit in the sca? like you have to be over 18 or something? I would love to join it, but somehow I think I'm a tad bit young
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2007 21:06:40 GMT
I think it is 18. They do have a youth division where the blows are light and half speed. It is better to start as young as posible dispite the speed strenth restriction of the youth section. Also the when you get the basics down, the people training you will generaly turn up the heat a bit. BTW, no one ever asked me for an ID... Yes, I am obviously not a teenager but 16 can pass for 19 if you are big enough. But I would never recommend you do such a thing
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Post by rammstein on Jan 5, 2007 21:25:23 GMT
tongue in cheek there tsafa Blech....light and half speed? I'll wait for two more years then...I can already hit stronger and faster than a all of my friends of the same age. I guess I'll stick to my normal group then.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2007 1:45:18 GMT
Tsafa, also if you are fighting to multiple blows (2 or more, I'm not sure if the sca does that or not. I say this cause usually in armor, one blow isn't enough to stop someone unless it is REALLY well placed) you can just run in on him take two quick shots while he really only has time to get one. Kind of cheating... The blow has to be hard enough so it can be felt through the armor. We fight on an honer system, basicaly if you are hit hard enough you call the shot "good". If you have been to enough practices you will know what a good shot is. If you have not, well then, you will be screaming good at the top of your lungs to make the pain stop, lol. If you don't say good, they keep comming. As a newbie don't expect to actualy hit anyone, they will block all your shots and hit you as you are recovering. As a newbie you should wear a lot of armor and padding on the inside cause you will be hit a lot. Hell, I still wear a lot of armor and padding. The shots really hurts and you get bruises right through the armor. This will restrict your movement to some extent. Don't think you will go out there and swing sword and shield like you do out of armor. Its a totaly different fight. It takes time and practice to adjust your armor so it is less restrictive. But deffinetly start with more armor and then remove as you go along cause if you don't wear enough armor, you will not make it to the second practice.
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Post by rammstein on Jan 6, 2007 1:54:38 GMT
Don't worry, I know exaaaactly what you mean. I do armoured fights and unarmoured fights as well (with padded swords and shields and all). And I am very familiar with the honor system which I use all of them time when I'm fencing without electrical equiptment. If I throw I shot I'm fairly certain hit my opponent and they don't call it, I hit harder . Vice versa as well. Its strange that many people in my fencing group find the honor system to be deceptive and worthless. I am well aware that fighting is different in armour than outside of it. For one thing, it hurts more (suprisingly....). ANother thing is, you are carrying a good 30-60 lbs of weight on you and you WILL get tired. Probably the hardest thing I've done in fighting was serve as "target practice" for my peers as they used blunted arrows in archery. I swear to god, that open field was at least 100 degrees. I must have drank a cooler of water by myself. Another thing that many people don't expect and I mentioned in the above paragraph is that blows actually hurt a lot through the armor. PRoviding that you aren't TOTALLY incased in steel which most people aren't (a motley collection of leather and chainmail with a bit of plate metal seems to be the fashion) it does hurt. This type of armor dooes little to stop the force of a rattan and all that it is really good for is stopping the actually cutting of the supposed sword, transfering the poer into a more blunt force.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2007 2:17:39 GMT
One thing that is really good about the honor system is that it really foster good will. It really puts a person in a state of mind were they are trying to give his opponent full credit for his good work.
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Post by rammstein on Mar 17, 2007 21:37:25 GMT
several guys get clotheslined and it looks pretty bad the smart ones work as a team to bring individuals down.
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Post by rammstein on Mar 17, 2007 21:43:02 GMT
an AWESOME reenactvment of the battle of grunwald
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2007 23:01:41 GMT
Those were very cool vids Ramstein. As Ramstein pointed out, one side holds formation very well.
There is a few more on u-tube. You-Tube is going to be very good for SCA growth. I enjoyed watching a few of the singles matches too. You can see the high skill in the way those fighters keep the sheild out and defending through their attack rather then bring it back as a counterweight while at the same time not blinding themselves with it. That is a big tell-tale. The various onside, offside and wrap shots are also executed well.
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Post by rammstein on Mar 17, 2007 23:08:56 GMT
type in sca melee or some other variants and you get some great videos
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2007 2:09:42 GMT
I saw some interesting videos from a group in Poland. I think they are using padded swords. It is interesting to compare, their fighting form is a lot more sloppy with a lot of flailing (swords just waiving about), it my have just been the skill level of a select few. The blows also seemed a lot softer.
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Post by rammstein on Mar 18, 2007 2:32:17 GMT
when people are incased in padding the realism portion of fighting is gone. Not that the sca is anywhere near perfect, but it is certainly better because you feel pain. The old phrase "No pain, no gain" certainly applies here.
an intereting vid!
(ok I royally screwed up and posted some thread I was looking at instead of the video!)
HEY LOOK EVERYONE! COOL UPDATED VIDEO!
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Post by rammstein on Mar 26, 2007 21:15:14 GMT
a great video - has it ALL!
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