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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2006 20:50:34 GMT
At this week SCA practice we did an awesome 3 on 3 melee. Normaly we do singles matches (1 on 1) to practice our individule skills. But the knight in charge this week said he wanted us to work on our ability to fight together and corordinate. he particulatly wanted to see the non shield fighters use their team-members shields by fighting from statigic positions.
On my team I was sole sword and sheild, we had one guy with a great sword, and one guy with two swords who was the most experianced on my team.
The other team had a very experianced spearman, and two sword and shield men.
We tried a number of combinations. The one that was the most effective for my side was me going after the spearman who was taking cover between his two shieldmen and attempting to pick us off with his point. I charged in between the two opposing shields. My two team-men had the job of blocking the opposing swords from hitting me while I attacked the spear. After blocking the spear point with my shield the spearman would then try to check me with the staff. I would then get my pommol over his staff and push with my shield in the opposite direction locking the two of us together. Then the push-pulling wrestling began. It was now up to my team mates to beat their opponet and then come get the spearmen while I had his spear tied up.
My team lost most of the matches. The two opposing shields had a much better deffence and were able to beat my two swordman and greatsword man . Then they would gang up on me.
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Post by rammstein on Dec 16, 2006 21:36:40 GMT
I've done something like this on a larger scale. basically a 16 on 16 melee. ranks up there with one of the top 10 things that I've done in my life ;D. I've found that in matches like this sticking close to your team will protect you. Two swords are (as you've found) pretty worthless. Greatswords/longswords are great because of the reach. if they team up with a sword and shieldman then you have a nice combo working for you. I've done this type of melee around 20 times and I feel that I do best a sword and shieldman. However, toward the end of these melees, we introduced quarterstaff (evil chuckles) and I was untouchable. Longsword is pretty formidable in the hands of a skilled man. Even against a sword/shieldman , if they play the range right and throw some good swift thrusts, it can be quite a difficulty to get by them. But then, you have 15 OTHER people to surround him for you ;D. Its all a team effort. What is fun is picking on the people who DON'T work as a team; those sole heroes who think they can defeat a large group of people as seen in lord of the rings and other movies. Our formation would eat them alive and then there is one less peson we have to worry about. In one of these melee's one of the longsword instructers and I (both using longsword) were the only remaining members of our side, aginst 4 sword/shielders, 1 longswordsman and 1 dual swordsman. I killed the dual swordsman and the longsword instructer (edward, so I don't have to type more ;D) took out the other longswordsman. So it was 2 to 4, but we were against 4 shieldsmen in a shield wall formation. I thrusted at one's legs and Edwards thrusts at the same one's face. The guy was so supprised he didn't even block and we both hit! I quickly took out another by sweeping the blade up between his shield and another shield. Now its two on two. I don't remember how we killed one of them, but we did and one remained. We clobbered him . Anyway, that anecdote was to show that longswords CAN have a great effect in battle.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2006 22:50:14 GMT
I think one of the best advantages to a longsword, at least a proper one anyway, is its ability to be used in one or two hands. When I use a shield it's one of two types: A small shield strapped to my forearm(to keep my hand free - another valuable asset as I can switch between one and two-handed techniques), or my 'irish shield', which consists of a thick blanket or hide wrapped around my fist, with a little hanging out.
With the extra hanging out, one can wrap an enemies' limb or weapon, which is great, and the thick blanket is almost impossible to cut through(it's just too padded and gives too much.
When cutting stationary targets of course, the thick blanket or hide wouldn't be as effective, but moving in a fight, it's much harder to cut well. Especially if I torque my arm in a direction askew to the cut, which ruins the edge alignment.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2006 1:56:44 GMT
My team consisted of people with less experiace. The spearman and one of the sword and sheild guys on the other team have more then 10 years experiance, so I think that was the biggest factor going against us.
We are practicing indoors now cause the weather is cold here in NY. So that limits the size of the the melees.
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Post by rammstein on Dec 17, 2006 2:13:16 GMT
my melee was indoors as well, albiet in a large dining type of room so we had plenty of space. we also varied things up, like closing shuttes to make three seperate room with small openings in the two walls to similate doorway combat. It was almost impossible to penetrate that small gap with so many weapons pounding you.
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Post by rammstein on Dec 17, 2006 2:25:18 GMT
And our age group was like 10-40 so age probably accounted for a lot. Still, I don't see why some of these principles can't be applied in real battle. One of the major things that you learn fast is WATCH YOUR D**N SURROUNDINGS! it is so easy to take a blade to the helmet and have no idea where it came from and walking stupidly away from combat thinking "dern that was stupid! who hit me!?" You have to be aware of everything in your vicinity. I quickly became acclimated to this so at a point, I was probably the best melee fighter. Then people started learning that you can be hit by people you aren't watching and they started to be more careful. The same rule applies vice versa. Don't attack the person in front of you, thats stupid. If the man to his right is deeply involved in another combat, clober him when he's not looking. Take cross shots when they least expect it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2006 6:59:19 GMT
Now this is my type of thread! I know some guys have been to Pennsic with thousands of people on each side, but my most recent melee combat had about 100 people total split 60 - 40. The side with 40 did have more SCA knights who are d**n good fighters. During the first battle I was on the side with 60 in the front shield wall as we marched across the field to meet our enemies.
Arrows were bouncing off my shield and there was a crash as our shields meet the enemy shields. Each side had spearmen with 9 foot spears that were being thrust with all their might searching for cracks in the shield wall. As shieldmen on both sides started to fall gaps were created and men with sword and shields from both sides charged through the gaps as the shield walls broke apart.
By this point I had taken a spear thrust to the face and lay on the ground watching the rest of the battle. The spearmen on both sides were run down and killed without mercy. A few spearmen had short swords hung at their sides that they tried to used to defend themselves, but to little effect against sword and shield.
I think we did end up winning the battle, but it was only through attrition.
There were very few two handed (greatsword) swordman on the field (if any). I believe that because the way the combat system works in the SCA the guy with a two handed sword is at an extreme disadvantage because even in armor a single blow to head or body is a killing blow. Historically the armor worn would have protected the knight, but in the SCA a killing blow is a killing blow therefore it is best not to be hit. This leads to most people using shields or standing behind men with shields.
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Post by rammstein on Dec 17, 2006 14:22:35 GMT
wow...I would have so loved to be there! Did you discover anything else of use and/or advice about melees? I'd love to hear your experiences!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2006 15:00:39 GMT
Here is another experience from the same event. It was later on in the day when we were mixing things up with a bridge battle. I had written this for my household news letter, so this is just a cut and paste.
I can say that a shield walls purpose is to just stay alive. Unfortunately it is hard not to swing at a target when you see one, which can leave you open or lead to the loss of an arm as it protrudes over the wall.
Some of the more memorable points (to me anyway) were during the bridge battle when I was in the second row of the shield wall with Peg right behind me. We charged across the bridge just over halfway and the front shield line dropped and the second shield line placed their shields over the front line. From this position and with my height I was able to attack very well and rain blows down on the heads of our enemies. I had at least 4 kills maybe more before a spear caught me from the side. Though I had died the press of fighters from behind held me in place so that I could not fall. Eventually someone died beside me so that I could move to the side and out of the mass. Later on I learned that when I moved it left Peg exposed and susbsequently lead to his death.
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Post by rammstein on Dec 17, 2006 15:22:58 GMT
One of my most memorable experiences involved me and my friend (I'm taller and faster, he's stronger and shorter) engaged each other on another part of the battle field. He killed 2 people around me, and I killed the guy next to him, so we were the only people within twenty feet of each other. I was using quarter staff and he was using a flail and shield combo (never get in the way of that flail, mind you, it may be padded but it hurts !). I sort of backed off as I was tired and was not in a state to fight him while he was boiling with adrenelin and loosing battle cries like mad. So anyway, I'm backing off and Edward (the same longsword instructor as before) asked for my quarter staff to try it out. So virtually in mid combat we quickly switched weapons (he was using sword and shield this time). However, I realized a horrible mistake that I had made! he was a righty meaning I couldn't use the shield. Just to try my luck, I went into combat singlesword, with my hand behind my back and I ran into my friend (tony) again. Obviously he clobered me . This was before I started fighting ambidextrously so I had no chance of using the shield and sword effectively. Point of the story: Shields HELP a lot! normally we are an equal match in almost any weapon field, but when its shield against single sword, the shieldman has a huge advantage. Also, we use quarterstaffs a bit like spears obviously.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2006 19:36:02 GMT
This is truely and excellant discusion. I think that this an example of one crucial focus that is missing from all those other sword forums. The actual use of sword and weapon simulators in combat. Yes, the old line that we can't simulate combat 100%, but all modern armies try to. They aknowledge that in modern military wargames there is some missing element of true combat but at the same time know that there is much benifit and feedback to be gained for war games.
Often times people will discuse weapons use just from studying manuals. While this is a good place to start, the manuals really focus on singles combat. Further more, even to that extent some of the language and drawings are not clear. In 15th century the various schools in Germany and Europe where very much at odds with each other over the best methods. Fiore Dei Libri states that most other Master were not fit to be his students, we can assume those other Master felt the same about him. We should gather all the accademic information we can, but in the end we must actully fight in order to learn what works under certain circumstances and what does not.
-Trueswordsman, that was some cool stuff you posted. I did not get to go to Pensic this year, I was vacationing in Europe. Maybe next year.
-Rammstein, interesting weapon the Flail. I have not really worked with it. I saw one guy useing it effectivly by holding the stick near the chain. He could use the ball to hit but also the stick to block fro mthat hand possition. I think he also had a thrusting tip on the end of the stick. The ball is very good for throwing a spider shot over the opposing shield or a wrap around it. He fights with a either shield or sword in the offhand. I have heard he also modifed the flail for two handed use with a longer stick and butt spike.
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Post by rammstein on Dec 17, 2006 19:47:26 GMT
Agreed 100% tsafa. Books and manuscripts may help, but when it comes down to it, actual fighting is what prevails.
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Post by rammstein on Dec 17, 2006 19:58:49 GMT
One thing I find interesting is the belief that if you aren't in a fully defensable position or formation (shield wall, for example) people will rush you. This is not always the case in real life, albiet it may be true in sca and other fighting groups. I try to attatch myself to the battle as much as I can. If I die inthe battle I take it as a blow to myself. I don't shrug it off as, "Oh well, I'll try aain next time" because that thought is not what occurs in battle. When you die, you die, no ands, ifs, or buts. Therefore I'm not about to throw my life away charging a line while the rest of the army follows behind me and tries to open up the wedge I've created with my dead body. I'd be dead and it would all be for nothing. So when you fight in combat, try to remember that, as an ordinary soldier, your primary purpouse is to stay ALIVE not to kill as many of the enemy as possible or to fight heroically. Here's an anecdote: My friends and I (aged 12, 16, and 16, repsectively[yes we're young, so what ]) took on one of the longsword masters. you would think that in a three on 1 battle, we could rush him and only 1 or 2 of us will die. Still, would you want to take that chance? would you want to die knowing you gambled away your life? of course not, you will want to play it safe and try to use every advantage you have! Rushing madly gets you (and sometime your teammates) killed. It is not smart combat and it is not the way battle works, in my opinion. While organized charged are of great use, suicidally sprinting and then throwing yourself on 20 people isn't. And thats exactly what I found a lot of people tend to do. Staring down the point of a padded blade in the hands of a peer isn't scary. Staring down the blade of a sharpened blade in the hands of someone that wants to kill you IS. Just my expereience, may or may not be correct. Again, we are young so we probably aren't doing SOMETHING right! I just try to take this as real combat rather than mock battles.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2006 18:23:01 GMT
This is not just a problem for SCA fighters but also for the military as they practice wargames. Yet they still do wargames because it is better then not. They do the best they can to recreate the battlefield and leave it up to the soldiers to make the final adjustment when the real bullets start flying.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2006 20:40:37 GMT
I am sure we would all fight differently (in the SCA) if there were an actual chance of being killed.
I have seen a lot of folks who live for the charge (because it is fun), but most of them don't live through the battle. In the shield wall I have survived through a few battles just holding my position and doing my job, which is to stay alive and provide a speed bump to protect our spearmen and archers.
Just like in history, charges do break through, but with heavy losses. Historically a failed charge could be devastating, because if you don't break through you've just lost a lot of men for no gain.
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Post by rammstein on Dec 19, 2006 21:04:09 GMT
Well, thats why I find fighting a bit off. because you can't replicate the fear and pain of fighting for your life in a mock battle, you can't truly expereince what it is/was like. As I said before, I try to attatch myself as much as possible to the fight.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2006 2:56:47 GMT
I wanted to test out the Lord of the Ring - Aragorn vs. 100 Orc theory. I thought I would start off with two against one all of us with sword and shield. The two fighters one about equal in ability and one with less ability than me.
Since it was my idea I was the one against the two first. I was trying to leg one of them then I could pull the other one away and return later for the legged fighter. I did not have luck in taking the leg right away but did finally kill the weaker of the two after about 4 minutes with a lot of moving to keep them from catching me between them. Let me tell you 4 minutes is not a long time but I was winded pretty good. I was able to kill the equal fighter but barely.
In the other two fights of course the two of us who are equal killed the fighter with less ability very quickly. And then the last scenario the equal fighter was able to stay alive but we eventually killed him.
That was just two against one. Three against one would have been over rather quickly. I would like to try it again, but against a bunch of new fighters and pit them against me. I might be able to take them if they don't work as a team.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2006 22:25:10 GMT
Last nights practice was a little light for malee practice. A guess a lot of people are taking it easy for the holidays. We did mainly singles combat. I fought with a SCA knight who has been fighting for 25 years and got my $emprini cut off and handed to me. I'm full of black and blues today, but I learned a thing or too. I spent the rest of the night fighting a new pikeman who I ran over like a steamroller. Then a very experianced pikeman, which turned out to be a pretty even fight. It turned into a rangecontest, him trying to keep me at a distance and me wanting to get real close. He was very good at rolling to my shield side to hide behind my own shield, but that only helped him so much since I still had him at a range that was advantageous to me. Then I fought a girl who used a sword and shield and had been fighting for 10 years. That was pretty well matched up. I took some hits, she took some hits.
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Post by rammstein on Jan 3, 2007 17:52:40 GMT
well in general....pikes were not used for one on one combat, so if he was going one on one with you, he must have been really good. Pikes are designed for formations and work best with (suprisingly ) other pikes and/or shieldmen. With other pikes, you don't have as much to worry about because, if you think of it from the point of view of a shieldman, 10 pikes are scarier than 1. And with shieldmen defending pikemen, the pikemen can hide behind the shields and rain down blows from above while staying relatively save.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2007 20:19:10 GMT
Rammestein, I agree with you. Pikes should only give some advange in large formations. I am suprised with how many experiance fighters disagree with us though. I have also witnessed a lot of sword and shieldmen have a very difficult time with pikemen in singles combat.
The first part of the problem, I think, is that Shieldmen don't train often enough against pikemen. So when they have to face them, they are not very fluid.
The second probem for most shieldmen is that they don't have my speed and agility to close the distance and get close to the pikeman so his long pike is a disadvantage to him. The pikeman usualy has less armor so that gives him a edge speedwise. In my particular case, when I fight as a sword and sheildman I actualy have more armor then is usual for shieldmen. Because of the heavy powerlifting training I do, I am able to close the distance in less time then most other shieldmen with less armor and I am able to stay on the pikeman in that close range as he tries to manuver out. I usualy get him with a spider wrap over my shield to his head or a grass cutter down low and up to his side.
I got another practice tonight at 7.30 pm. I post the highlights tomorrow.
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