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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Apr 7, 2007 12:51:25 GMT
I'm not sure what this debate is about...weight training has benifits, yes? So...enlighten me so I can join in ;D Wight training is a wonderful tool with widespread applications. It can help athletes of any discipline. Where do you want weight training to take you. It's just a matter of knowing your goals, and the right techniques used to reach them. Like Tsafa finds squats are most beneficial for holding heavy opponents with his shield. Your goal may be explosive speed. There are techniques to build that too. There are thousands of ways to train. Weight training holds a universe of potential - what do you want to achieve? Cheers
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2007 18:46:44 GMT
Well said Brenno. Wecome to the forum. I will give you some Karma to make you feel at home.
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Apr 8, 2007 1:13:20 GMT
Thanks Tsafa, Its good to read all this info and opinions, more fun to participate. I'm not an expert in swordsmanship, they have only become a recent obsession. Weight training however is something I have a lot of experience in.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2007 11:02:46 GMT
Hi all,
Regarding connective tissue - this is a very brief overview of an incredibly detailed area, but I hope it's useful.
There isn't much literature that I know of on positive cartilage adaptations to training, however it is still a developing area of research. It isn't likely that a great deal of improvement can be expected, as the nutrient supply to articulating cartilage is mainly by the joint synovial fluid. The deeper cartilage of joints may yield better adaptation.
Current research suggests that the normal cartilage of your joints doesn't heal back to normal after damage, but different types of cartilage can replace damaged cartilage depending on the surgical intervention - i.e. microtrauma surgery can help the body replace hyaline cartilage (normal joint stuff and great for joint sliding) with fibrocartilage (not as good, but a better choice than bone on bone!) in the case of severe osteoarthritis. The procedure basically creates a nice scar on the joint surface which can then slide on the opposing surface. Cartilage grafts have also been used recently.
Current research also suggests that connective tissue such as ligaments are not likely to become stronger with training, but are likely to degenerate less with age if stressed appropriately - eccentric training has been shown to help with tendon repair. I too have heard rumours about high reps but have not found any evidence to back it up. In terms of pure speculation; as tendons have less blood supply than muscles, higher reps and lower weight seem to make sense to me as it gives time for whatever adaptations that may take place to occur. Increasing training stress too quickly may overtake this adaptation (remodelling) process.
Tendons and some ligaments can heal themselves but others require surgical intervention to get them better - this is generally dependent on things like the presence of blood supply or extent of trauma.
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Apr 9, 2007 13:46:08 GMT
Thats interesting research and some valuable points were made.
The bit I read about high reps rebuilding connective tissue was in a muscle magazine, so I don't know what research it's based on. I'll see if I can dig it up.
Chinese Chi Gung holds the belief that as long as there is life in a being, they have the ability to heal any dis-ease. They believe that propper channeling, and balancing, of chi (the life force) has the ability to rebuild and heal all ills.
Obviously ancient chinese Chigung is not based on the scientific reason that western research follows - but when it comes to healing ones self, its often better not to know too much, as we convince ourselves that things are not logically possible.
Cheers
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2007 16:48:53 GMT
Brenno,
I agree with your sentiment and find qigong a valuable part of my training. If I put my mind to it I could probably describe its anatomical basis as I currently understand it, but scientific knowledge is constantly growing and so it's best not to burn any conceptual bridges!
Cheers
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2007 14:45:35 GMT
From what I've found (from personal experience, and books, namely Bruce Lee's) is that by combining high reps/low weight training, with low reps/high weight training, along with cardio will build muscle in a such a way that increases strength and speed, without making you bulky, and without sacrificing your body's natural balance. This is of course only with free weights, I have not used weight machines, nor will I ever.
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Apr 19, 2007 16:19:12 GMT
That type of combining techniques links to what I was saying about knowing how to use the tool of weight training.
People think that if they lift heavy they will suddenly be Arnold. It aint easy to put on muscle. Not at all, so very few people need fear becoming too bulky.
And I agree that machines are un necessary, and sometimes dangerous. They can only offer a set path, whereas every body works on different arcs.
Machines feebly try to replicate natural movements performed with free weights. All machines are an attempt by the makers to get them some $$$. Safety racks aside - they are an important accessory to free weight training.
A handful of the right free weight movements will suit 99% of peoples' goals.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2007 23:20:59 GMT
I also agree with using a mix aof rep ranges. They each have their purpose.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2007 4:25:33 GMT
I had hurt my shoulder back in November during SCA combat and after months of weight training it is finally back up to full strength and actually stronger than before.
Done properly weights are an essential tool to combat!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2007 1:59:15 GMT
...Done properly weights are an essential tool to combat! I disagree. Done properly, STRENGTH TRAINING is essential to combat. Not weights. Weights are one way to go about it, but as I stated I prefer other methods of strength training.
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Apr 27, 2007 3:54:33 GMT
I think the theory between steel weights and body weight training are the same. The shape and composition of the tool may differ but essentially we're training with the same guidelines. Body weight training is good because in the field that is what you are moving, the same weight.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2007 16:48:54 GMT
Brenno, I agree with you.
Training with weights and training with bodyweight have a similar feature in that they are working against gravity. This is vs. machines that change the direction of the forces. So effectively you are doing the same motion at a higher body weight. I think that at some point as you start to increase the reps too high (with or without weight), the muscle starts to become effected differently. An example would be women doing aerobics with 5 lb weights. Clearly they are not strength training, they are just burning a few more calories.
This is an example of why squatting is better then legpresses. In the example of squatting it can also be done without weights but you will not tax the muscle much. Adding weights just makes that natural movement exercise more effective. Another example might be dips. You might do 40 reps without weight or 10 by hanging a 25 lb plate. You can then slowly try to increase you reps to 20. This will actual make the muscle stronger. I you work without the extra weight and try to go from 40 to 60 the muscle will not get stronger, your just burning calories. Pushups vs, benching is a similar example.
Chinups would be a good example of an exercise where people don't need weights. I do 4 sets of 10 reps with my 210 lb body weight and thats enough. The lat-pulldown machine would be ideal for most people that just start working out because they only have the ability to do more then 1 or 2 reps. A lot of people can't do even one rep with their bodyweight. So they can use this machine to properly train themselves so they can do their own bodyweight for 10 reps. The lat-pull down is the same motion as chinups, the machine allows you to adjust your bodyweight to a level where you can actually work the muscle.
Machines have their place too. Sometimes there is no other way to strengthen a muscle. Leg curls is hard with out them. It is hard to concentrate the bicep-femere (leg-bicep) any other way. When I was in high school I only did squats for legs. I had developed a good 300 lb plus squat back then. One day I was horsing around with one of the guys and I went to trip him, by hooking my leg. I found myself nearly cramping up the leg-bicep. Sure squats hit leg-bicep to some extent and so did the running I was doing. But non of these exercises concentrated that muscle. The leg hook I did concentrated that one muscle and tried to apply maximum force, the muscle was not prepared for it. I added leg curls to my routine and that was the last time that muscle cramped up in a leghook.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2007 0:04:27 GMT
On the topic of free weights vs machines et al.; from what I can tell there is very little evidence to support that one mode of resistance is more dangerous than the other. I agree that it is potentially disadvantageous to restrict the movement of joints. I feel that the problem with this is not that the joint can't move freely, but that the muscle action required to produce this restricted movement can be altered from the typical pattern due to the decreased requirement of gross body segment stabilisation. The machine can take on this role and one can perform, say, an overhead press with poor scapular stabilisation (which is required in freeweights) as all one is doing it pushing with all their might into the handles! Another matter is the possibility of increased joint wear... but that is going to be highly contentious There is, however, some good reasons for some use of machines as when it comes to training the body, resistance is resistance (I'll leave the case for torsion's role in bone growth for another time!) and it is the manner that this resistance is applied that counts; i.e. rate, direction, localisation, amplitude, etc. tsafa has provided a good example where machines can be used to help train the hamstrings in their inner range of motion - not something easily progressed with free weights. Cable machines could also be used in this instance and would be my general choice over fixed arm machines - most are not designed to accommodate the changing centre of rotation of our joints during movement. The disadvantage of cable machines in this example is that the line of pull doesn't remain perpendicular to the tibia which can lead to inefficient resistance and/or shear - but this occurs in normal movements anyway! The perception that heavy weights slow people down is a long standing one but in terms of training physiology it doesn't have much evidence to stand on. There is a general principle called SAID - Specific Adaptations for Imposed Demands - which means you will get better at what you train! If one wants to become faster then one should train with speed. The speed that one may move is related to the load one can apply but training can be alternated between heavy and light weights to get the benefit of speed and strength - but one can also lift reasonably heavy things quickly to train power. The musclebound perception is mainly going to be due to a lack of stretching/mobility training that anyone can fall victim to - no matter their mode of training. There is much evidence supporting the use of strength training in improving balance, and one only need look at elite athletes to see how muscle development can be related to performance.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2007 23:11:38 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2007 4:25:05 GMT
Nice site. Lot of stuff to read through. I looked as somethings tonight and I will spend more time looking at tomorrow. I will be able to comment further then.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2007 11:58:41 GMT
kortoso,
I like the way you've approached your body segment training!
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2007 12:10:01 GMT
I think heavy weight training saved me from a broken leg this week. Doing heavy squats and deadlifts adds a lot of mass and density to bones. I was fighting a relatively new guy wed night. I had sword and shield and he had a 5 lb rattan greatsword. I was having an easy time controlling his weapon with my shield and hitting him at my leisure with a wrap from behind my shield or a thrust. After a few rounds of frustrating him with my shield, I see him spin around and without looking or aiming took a low swing that landed on my shin. In the SCA all hits must be above the knee so I had not anticipated needing to defend there. Just to be extra cautious I had greaves that came half way down my shin. His blow found the two inches of unprotected area between my greaves and boots. The sharp pain of the impact shot through my whole body. I am certain if not for my high bone density, I would have had a fractured Tibialis.
The lower leg has all the weight of the body over it, so when it gets hit, it does not give at all to the blow. All the force gets transfered straight into the bone. There is little muscle there to cushion the impact. The swelling and pain in that area is just starting to go down today. I spent yesterday modifying my greaves so that they go all the way down to my ankles and overlap my boots.
I am certain my weight lifting saved me from a broken leg.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2007 19:22:50 GMT
You're right Tsafa, your bone density does increase when you train with weights.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2007 2:26:28 GMT
Hey y'all, I recently ordered me a Bowflex. While I don't expect to ever be like good old Arnold Swartzenegger, I want to tone up and strengthen up a bit. I am excited about getting it. Take care, FB
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